Byzantine Empire 1923-1924...

[Jefgte]

D11, Byzantine Empire Atlantic class laid down 1923

Displacement:
   1 500 t light; 1 569 t standard; 1 794 t normal; 1 973 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (375,61 ft / 374,02 ft) x 36,09 ft x (11,63 / 12,38 ft)
   (114,49 m / 114,00 m) x 11,00 m  x (3,54 / 3,77 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,02lbs / 24,05kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal gun - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1923 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 raised mount
      4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 3,35lbs / 1,52kg shells, 1 000 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      4 raised mounts
      2 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      Weight of broadside 239 lbs / 108 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33 650 shp / 25 103 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 7 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 404 tons

Complement:
   137 - 179

Cost:
   £0,559 million / $2,236 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 43 tons, 2,4 %
      - Guns: 43 tons, 2,4 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 0,6 %
      - Armament: 10 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 914 tons, 50,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 424 tons, 23,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 293 tons, 16,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 109 tons, 6,1 %
      - On freeboard deck: 80 tons
      - Above deck: 29 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     495 lbs / 225 Kg = 9,4 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
   Metacentric height 1,7 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 11,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,400 / 0,413
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  18,21 ft / 5,55 m,  14,93 ft / 4,55 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  14,93 ft / 4,55 m,  12,30 ft / 3,75 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  12,30 ft / 3,75 m,  12,30 ft / 3,75 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  12,30 ft / 3,75 m,  12,96 ft / 3,95 m
      - Average freeboard:      13,48 ft / 4,11 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 8 309 Square feet or 772 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 153 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,07
      - Overall: 0,54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

32t for 8TT x 533 HW
4t for 1918 top mast rangefinder
25t for LR marconi
6t for additionnal engines ventillation
15t for improved Hydrophone
5t for 50x90DC
32t reserved for new material, armament, minen.

Trial speed: 32.5kts
Bonus: 0.5

[Jefgte]

Just to test 2T3x191-32kts

C9, Byzantine Empire C9 laid down 1924

Displacement:
   7 550 t light; 7 861 t standard; 8 641 t normal; 9 265 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (572,88 ft / 570,87 ft) x 57,09 ft x (18,02 / 19,01 ft)
   (174,61 m / 174,00 m) x 17,40 m  x (5,49 / 5,79 m)

Armament:
      6 - 7,52" / 191 mm 45,0 cal guns - 214,42lbs / 97,26kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 200 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1 633 lbs / 741 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   423,23 ft / 129,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   1,38" / 35 mm   131,23 ft / 40,00 m   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
     16,40 ft / 5,00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,51" / 140 mm   0,98" / 25 mm      2,56" / 65 mm
   3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,54" / 90 mm, Aft 2,76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 78 952 shp / 58 898 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 403 tons

Complement:
   447 - 582

Cost:
   £2,367 million / $9,469 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 351 tons, 4,1 %
      - Guns: 351 tons, 4,1 %
   Armour: 1 513 tons, 17,5 %
      - Belts: 721 tons, 8,3 %
      - Armament: 135 tons, 1,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 600 tons, 6,9 %
      - Conning Towers: 57 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 2 601 tons, 30,1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 834 tons, 32,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 091 tons, 12,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 251 tons, 2,9 %
      - Hull below water: 38 tons
      - Hull above water: 38 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 114 tons
      - Above deck: 61 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7 182 lbs / 3 258 Kg = 33,8 x 7,5 " / 191 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 2,6 ft / 0,8 m
   Roll period: 15,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,515 / 0,523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  22,97 ft / 7,00 m,  20,01 ft / 6,10 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  20,01 ft / 6,10 m,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m,  17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Average freeboard:      18,26 ft / 5,57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 22 014 Square feet or 2 045 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 428 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,87
      - Longitudinal: 1,10
      - Overall: 0,90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t for Long Range Marconi
36t for top mast rangefinder - FC1918
38t for climatisation
38t for additionnal pumps
32t for 8TTx21" HW
60t for 2x60 minen
22t reserved

[Jefgte]

Update C9 (Isparta class-12520t-2T3x254+4T2x152) with 6T2x140 (Hood sec. guns) in place of 4T2x152
Armor & speed identical

2T3x254, Byzantine Empire AC10 laid down 1924

Displacement:
   12 560 t light; 13 212 t standard; 14 256 t normal; 15 092 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (573,16 ft / 573,16 ft) x 75,46 ft x (21,98 / 22,97 ft)
   (174,70 m / 174,70 m) x 23,00 m  x (6,70 / 7,00 m)

Armament:
      6 - 10,00" / 254 mm 45,0 cal guns - 504,26lbs / 228,73kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm 50,0 cal guns - 88,63lbs / 40,20kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 450 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4 184 lbs / 1 898 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   380,58 ft / 116,00 m   11,15 ft / 3,40 m
   Ends:   1,18" / 30 mm   190,29 ft / 58,00 m   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
     2,30 ft / 0,70 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1,77" / 45 mm   380,58 ft / 116,00 m   19,03 ft / 5,80 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62,34 ft / 19,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   2,95" / 75 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm   0,79" / 20 mm      1,77" / 45 mm
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1,77" / 45 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 75 400 shp / 56 248 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
                    7100nm at 14 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 880 tons

Complement:
   652 - 848

Cost:
   £3,669 million / $14,677 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 198 tons, 8,4 %
      - Guns: 1 198 tons, 8,4 %
   Armour: 3 800 tons, 26,7 %
      - Belts: 1 487 tons, 10,4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 475 tons, 3,3 %
      - Armament: 646 tons, 4,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 043 tons, 7,3 %
      - Conning Towers: 150 tons, 1,0 %
   Machinery: 2 484 tons, 17,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 756 tons, 33,4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 696 tons, 11,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 323 tons, 2,3 %
      - Hull below water: 62 tons
      - Hull above water: 62 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 54 tons
      - Above deck: 145 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18 286 lbs / 8 294 Kg = 36,6 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 3,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,525 / 0,532
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,94 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   16,50 %,  23,13 ft / 7,05 m,  20,18 ft / 6,15 m
      - Forward deck:   33,50 %,  20,18 ft / 6,15 m,  17,22 ft / 5,25 m
      - Aft deck:   34,00 %,  17,22 ft / 5,25 m,  17,22 ft / 5,25 m
      - Quarter deck:   16,00 %,  17,22 ft / 5,25 m,  17,22 ft / 5,25 m
      - Average freeboard:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 29 488 Square feet or 2 739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,38
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

110t for top fire control - 1914
25t for Marconi
32t for 8TTx21" HW
62t for additionnal ventilation
62t for additionnal pumps
22t reserved

[Jefgte]

Cheaper in BP...

C10, Byzantine Empire 3T3x191 Cruiser laid down 1924

Displacement:
   7 680 t light; 8 028 t standard; 8 817 t normal; 9 449 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (573,97 ft / 571,85 ft) x 59,88 ft x (17,85 / 18,81 ft)
   (174,95 m / 174,30 m) x 18,25 m  x (5,44 / 5,73 m)

Armament:
      9 - 7,52" / 191 mm 45,0 cal guns - 214,42lbs / 97,26kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
     3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      6 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,18lbs / 24,12kg shells, 160 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 200 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      8 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,20lbs / 1,45kg shells, 800 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2 302 lbs / 1 044 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   374,02 ft / 114,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   1,38" / 35 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
     0,98 ft / 0,30 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,51" / 140 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,54" / 90 mm, Aft 2,76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 53 943 shp / 40 242 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 420 tons

Complement:
   454 - 591

Cost:
   £2,263 million / $9,053 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 641 tons, 7,3 %
      - Guns: 641 tons, 7,3 %
   Armour: 1 724 tons, 19,5 %
      - Belts: 676 tons, 7,7 %
      - Armament: 297 tons, 3,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 693 tons, 7,9 %
      - Conning Towers: 58 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 1 777 tons, 20,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 374 tons, 38,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 137 tons, 12,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 165 tons, 1,9 %
      - Hull below water: 23 tons
      - Hull above water: 23 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 30 tons
      - Above deck: 89 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12 350 lbs / 5 602 Kg = 58,1 x 7,5 " / 191 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 2,7 ft / 0,8 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,505 / 0,513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  24,28 ft / 7,40 m,  21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  21,33 ft / 6,50 m,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Average freeboard:      19,14 ft / 5,83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 22 917 Square feet or 2 129 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,33
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

64t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
23t for additionnal pumps
23t for additionnal ventilation
18t for 6TTx21"
12t reserved

[TacCovert4]

It's cheaper in BP, but I like it better.  6 guns in 2 turrets is getting pretty dangerous for a cruiser, especially since they're not running heavy armor to begin with.  9 in 3 gives you more eggs and in more baskets.  While the 10in guns are more powerful, there are period studies about how 10in guns just lose RoF compared to 8in guns so badly that it doesn't really give you any advantage, especially in a cruiser fight.

[Jefgte]

10" => 227kg x 2.5rpm* x 6 guns = 3405kg
7"5 => 90kg x 4rpm* x 6 guns = 2160kg
5"5 => 37kg x 6rpm* x 6 guns = 1332kg

*Battle practice

It's cheaper in BP, but I like it better.  6 guns in 2 turrets is getting pretty dangerous for a cruiser, especially since they're not running heavy armor to begin with.  9 in 3 gives you more eggs and in more baskets.  While the 10in guns are more powerful, there are period studies about how 10in guns just lose RoF compared to 8in guns so badly that it doesn't really give you any advantage, especially in a cruiser fight.

Yes, but I love Panzerschiff config...

[Jefgte]

I test cruiser 1924 SS.
I did nt make choice   :-\
T3x254
T3x191+T2x140
24Kts - 5000nm - 200mm armor: a kind of AGB / monitor (able to work near 21kts Battleships line vs cruisers & DDs)
27kts - classic Byzantine scout cruiser speed.
29kts - 1920-22 speed.
32kts - futur speed.

[Jefgte]

AGB9750, Byzantine Empire AGB-2T3x254 laid down 1924

Displacement:
   9 750 t light; 10 385 t standard; 10 859 t normal; 11 238 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (490,81 ft / 490,81 ft) x 72,18 ft x (17,88 / 18,39 ft)
   (149,60 m / 149,60 m) x 22,00 m  x (5,45 / 5,61 m)

Armament:
      6 - 10,00" / 254 mm 45,0 cal guns - 504,26lbs / 228,73kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm 50,0 cal guns - 88,63lbs / 40,20kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      8 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 4 169 lbs / 1 891 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,06" / 230 mm   321,52 ft / 98,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   1,97" / 50 mm   167,32 ft / 51,00 m   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
     1,97 ft / 0,60 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,54" / 90 mm   321,52 ft / 98,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
      1,57" / 40 mm   321,52 ft / 98,00 m   14,44 ft / 4,40 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52,49 ft / 16,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   2,56" / 65 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -         1,57" / 40 mm
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,76" / 70 mm
   Forecastle: 1,38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 1,38" / 35 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 34 000 shp / 25 364 Kw = 24,07 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 852 tons

Complement:
   531 - 691

Cost:
   £2,773 million / $11,093 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 172 tons, 10,8 %
      - Guns: 1 172 tons, 10,8 %
   Armour: 3 867 tons, 35,6 %
      - Belts: 1 820 tons, 16,8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 270 tons, 2,5 %
      - Armament: 453 tons, 4,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 198 tons, 11,0 %
      - Conning Towers: 125 tons, 1,1 %
   Machinery: 1 120 tons, 10,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 313 tons, 30,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 109 tons, 10,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 278 tons, 2,6 %
      - Hull below water: 45 tons
      - Hull above water: 45 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 46 tons
      - Above deck: 142 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 082 lbs / 7 748 Kg = 34,2 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 3,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,600 / 0,604
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  18,37 ft / 5,60 m,  15,42 ft / 4,70 m
      - Forward deck:   32,00 %,  15,42 ft / 4,70 m,  15,75 ft / 4,80 m
      - Aft deck:   32,00 %,  15,75 ft / 4,80 m,  15,75 ft / 4,80 m
      - Quarter deck:   18,50 %,  15,75 ft / 4,80 m,  15,75 ft / 4,80 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,84 ft / 4,83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 25 910 Square feet or 2 407 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 603 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,33
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

127t for top fire1918 control
25t for Marconi
18t for 6TTx21"
45t for additionnal ventilation
45t for additionnal pumps
28 t reserved

[Jefgte]

I like this one but the speed - 29kts - is a little short for 1924... I would like 32kts.

C9, Byzantine Empire C9 laid down 1924

Displacement:
   7 280 t light; 7 721 t standard; 8 492 t normal; 9 108 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (570,87 ft / 570,87 ft) x 59,06 ft x (18,60 / 19,58 ft)
   (174,00 m / 174,00 m) x 18,00 m  x (5,67 / 5,97 m)

Armament:
      6 - 7,52" / 191 mm 45,0 cal guns - 214,42lbs / 97,26kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm 50,0 cal guns - 88,63lbs / 40,20kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 50,0 cal guns - 14,29lbs / 6,48kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      8 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2 433 lbs / 1 104 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   370,73 ft / 113,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   1,38" / 35 mm   200,13 ft / 61,00 m   9,02 ft / 2,75 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      3,54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm   1,18" / 30 mm      1,57" / 40 mm
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,94" / 100 mm, Aft 2,76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 52 000 shp / 38 792 Kw = 29,02 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 387 tons

Complement:
   441 - 574

Cost:
   £2,263 million / $9,052 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 671 tons, 7,9 %
      - Guns: 671 tons, 7,9 %
   Armour: 1 548 tons, 18,2 %
      - Belts: 682 tons, 8,0 %
      - Armament: 192 tons, 2,3 %
      - Armour Deck: 614 tons, 7,2 %
      - Conning Towers: 60 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 1 713 tons, 20,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 051 tons, 35,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 212 tons, 14,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 297 tons, 3,5 %
      - Hull below water: 35 tons
      - Hull above water: 35 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 137 tons
      - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10 106 lbs / 4 584 Kg = 47,5 x 7,5 " / 191 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
   Metacentric height 2,6 ft / 0,8 m
   Roll period: 15,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,474 / 0,483
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  21,00 ft / 6,40 m,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  15,09 ft / 4,60 m,  15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  15,09 ft / 4,60 m,  15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Average freeboard:      16,30 ft / 4,97 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 946 Square feet or 2 039 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,12
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t for Long Range Marconi
65t for top mast rangefinder - FC1918
35t for climatisation
35t for additionnal pumps
32t for 8TTx21" HW
80t for 2x40 minen
25t reserved

[Jefgte]

This one - 32kts -  is probably too expensive.

C9, Byzantine Empire C9 laid down 1924

Displacement:
   8 900 t light; 9 326 t standard; 10 181 t normal; 10 865 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (570,87 ft / 570,87 ft) x 62,34 ft x (21,13 / 22,16 ft)
   (174,00 m / 174,00 m) x 19,00 m  x (6,44 / 6,75 m)

Armament:
      6 - 7,52" / 191 mm 45,0 cal guns - 214,42lbs / 97,26kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm 50,0 cal guns - 88,63lbs / 40,20kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 50,0 cal guns - 14,29lbs / 6,48kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      8 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2 078 lbs / 943 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   413,39 ft / 126,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   1,38" / 35 mm   157,48 ft / 48,00 m   9,02 ft / 2,75 m
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   1,38" / 35 mm      3,54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm   1,18" / 30 mm      1,57" / 40 mm
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,94" / 100 mm, Aft 2,76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 86 615 shp / 64 614 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 539 tons

Complement:
   506 - 658

Cost:
   £2,816 million / $11,265 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 566 tons, 5,6 %
      - Guns: 566 tons, 5,6 %
   Armour: 1 608 tons, 15,8 %
      - Belts: 722 tons, 7,1 %
      - Armament: 171 tons, 1,7 %
      - Armour Deck: 648 tons, 6,4 %
      - Conning Towers: 68 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 2 853 tons, 28,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 576 tons, 35,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 281 tons, 12,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 297 tons, 2,9 %
      - Hull below water: 35 tons
      - Hull above water: 35 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 137 tons
      - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 466 lbs / 4 293 Kg = 44,5 x 7,5 " / 191 mm shells or 1,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
   Metacentric height 2,7 ft / 0,8 m
   Roll period: 15,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,474 / 0,482
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  23,95 ft / 7,30 m,  21,00 ft / 6,40 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  21,00 ft / 6,40 m,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:      19,25 ft / 5,87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 163,8 %
   Waterplane Area: 23 165 Square feet or 2 152 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,45
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t for Long Range Marconi
65t for top mast rangefinder - FC1918
35t for climatisation
35t for additionnal pumps
32t for 8TTx21" HW
80t for 2x40 minen
25t reserved

[TacCovert4]

32kts....I'm pushing HARD for 1920 cruiser tech so I can start building 35kt cruisers......

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's cheaper in BP, but I like it better.  6 guns in 2 turrets is getting pretty dangerous for a cruiser, especially since they're not running heavy armor to begin with.  9 in 3 gives you more eggs and in more baskets.  While the 10in guns are more powerful, there are period studies about how 10in guns just lose RoF compared to 8in guns so badly that it doesn't really give you any advantage, especially in a cruiser fight.

Which is curious as the original concepts that led to Dreadnaught looked to 10" guns because of their higher rate of fire than 12". I also expect that they were real upper size for the 'continuous aim' to work, as when that technique came in is when you saw 10" ACRs in the US/Italy/Russia, plus Swiftsure.

One possibility is I know they looked at rebuilding the Tennessee class, and compared the original 10" to the new 8" and found it did not offer much.
I think a great deal of that has to do with the increases in turret and gun technology that occurred in between.
Also, the further out you are, the less important ROF is, as you try to fire salvos and spot fall.

Looking at NavWeaps:
~1900 8"/45 for the Virginia class is rated at 1-2rpm, while the
1922    8/55 Pensacolas is 3-4rpm,
1904  10/40 on the Tennessee's is 2-3 RPM

So, with 18 years of rapid evolution in gunnery and turrets, the 8" is +1 rpm on the 10".
I expect that pretty much vanishes when a 10" has the same tech.


As for 35kt cruisers, don't mean to hijack Jeftge's thread, but
I'm not terribly interested in that tradeoff. The ones I design can catch my older cruisers....but then can't reliably beat them, even if larger.

Also, real world, many of those high speeds are borderline fraudulent, so I don't look at them as benchmarks to aim for.

They were run not just light, but stripped down - or in some cases prior to completion and the ships lacked their mounts. The Japanese also had a tendency to need to go back and strengthen the hull, which added weight. The Omahas mounts were cramped and barely protected, they were so wet aft they plated over some torpedo tubes, and their hulls were so lightly built they flexed at full speed and let sea water into the fuel.  Which somewhat diminishes the utility of such speed if using it costs you range and fuel issues. In later liquid loaded TDS designs, they counted on that Bunker fuel will float on top, but they mix at the interface and that part isn't usable, you need filters. Last you wind up with comments of how ships speeds declined with age and wear and fouling, not to mention how battle damage to even just the funnels, much less the waterline, can suck speed away. Get a large hole at the waterline and it seems like 20knots or less is needed to keep internal bulkheads from collapsing.

Hmm, that was longer than expected, sorry Jefgte.

[Jefgte]

32kts....I'm pushing HARD for 1920 cruiser tech so I can start building 35kt cruisers......

Like Kaiser, I'm not a fan of high speeds for cruisers. 35kts is done to the detriment of other characteristics of the ships (armament, solidity). 32kts seems sufficient for the missions they have to accomplish.

For AC, the Panzerschiff concept (2T3x254 - 29kts) satisfies me for the moment.
For the SC, with the T3x191, 32kts increases the displacement in exaggerated proportions.
They would perhaps be desirable to maintain at 29kts-30kts with a larger armament and a displacement of 7000-7500t.

[TacCovert4]

I know it's a tangent.  But I'm thinking primarily of 35kt cruisers for DD leaders.  They might not be the best or most efficient for the job, but it's something I've got in mind and it matches the Aztec idiom of stupidly fast light forces.

[Kaiser Kirk]

but it's something I've got in mind and it matches the Aztec idiom of stupidly fast light forces.

oh thats part of the fun.
The Parthian version of the idiom seems to be 'that is the best armed turtle I've seen'.