Urban Designs

[Desertfox]

I would suggest the Five Nations, Thailand, Berber States, or the Deccan as small, relatively uninvolved options. I would recommend picking maybe a couple and start designing ships that fit their particular needs. Not necessarily actually joining but as a way of designing more focused ships instead of generic designs. Its how I started, throwing out hypothetical designs for the Aztec, Maya,and Thailand, before ending up with Japan.

It is great to have another artist on board, especially one using shipbucket scale. Rocky and me have been sticking to 1/2 shipbucket scale.

[Urban]

I would suggest the Five Nations, Thailand, Berber States, or the Deccan as small, relatively uninvolved options. I would recommend picking maybe a couple and start designing ships that fit their particular needs. Not necessarily actually joining but as a way of designing more focused ships instead of generic designs. Its how I started, throwing out hypothetical designs for the Aztec, Maya,and Thailand, before ending up with Japan.

It is great to have another artist on board, especially one using shipbucket scale. Rocky and me have been sticking to 1/2 shipbucket scale.

That's a good idea actually, it would definitely give rise to something less aimless and more productive in the long run! Might need some assistance from others nailing down what sort of vessels the nation(s) would need and actually be able to field, plus what they could produce domestically and what they'd need to foreign order though?

And thanks, I've seen a lot of the 1/2 shipbucket scale drawings around and I really like them, especially some of the more "out there" stuff like the diplomatic and spy ships! Wouldn't call myself an artist yet but I do find the process pretty therapeutic  ;)

[TacCovert4]

For smaller, I'd recommend Ethiopia probably.  They were mostly spooled up, and we'd all be more than happy to whip up their forces for you.  They also have a very limited bit of coastline to defend, so you don't have to worry about building a significant battle fleet.

[Jefgte]

	ETHIOPIA
Quantity	Class	Displacement	LD	Speed	Dimensions	Armament	Armor	Range / Speed
1	Solomonic	17500	1906	25kts	150x26	2T2x255+6T2x180	B320-100-T320-D90	5750nm-10kts
1	Ethiopia	7914	1903	18	123x18	2T2x255+4T2x180	B220-100-T250-D50	5000nm-10kts
1	VdT	14860	1904	25	175x23	4T2x255+4T2x180	B200-100-T240-D45	5000nm-10kts
2	Bismarck	15783	1901-03	24	170x23	3T2x255+12x152	B150-100-T152-D51	6000nm-10kts
1	Exorcist	9226	1910	25	140x21	2T2x255+2T2x180	B250-100-T250-D64	5500nm-10kts
2	PC	6000	1909	27	150x16	8x180	B120-T65-D30	7600nm-10kts
3	CGB	3000	1903	16	90x16	2x180+2x120	B90-T90-D30	4600nm-10kts
3	Minelayer	2150	1890	18	96x12	6x100+130minen		2800nm-10kts
12	DD	1000	1918	31	87x9	4x90+12TTx533		3000nm-10kts
12	TB	500	1904	26	70x7	4x100+4TTx457		2650nm-10kts
48	TB	345	1900	27	72x7	1x75+4TTx457		1200nm-10kts

[TacCovert4]

Yep.  And any of us would be more than happy to help you through some of the build program stuff if there's ships that you wouldn't want to or wouldn't have time to design.

[Urban]

Sounds like it's a good option for the near future then, thanks for your assistance so far- I'll let you know when I think I'm ready but no worries if someone else comes along and nabs it in the meantime!

Managed to get the next design done today, a gunboat primarily designed for riverine use but is also decently built for coastal work. Lightly armoured, should hopefully keep most small arms from swiss cheesing the hull/gun crews at least? No picture yet, figured it's probably best not to get too attached to something that might have glaring mistakes in the design!


GB01,  Gunboat laid down 1912

Displacement:
   289 t light; 311 t standard; 350 t normal; 381 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (180.00 ft / 180.00 ft) x 30.00 ft x (4.50 / 4.80 ft)
   (54.86 m / 54.86 m) x 9.14 m  x (1.37 / 1.46 m)

Armament:
      3 - 4.00" / 102 mm 40.0 cal guns - 30.67lbs / 13.91kg shells, 175 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 220 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 144 lbs / 65 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.47" / 12 mm     90.00 ft / 27.43 m   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
   Ends:   0.28" / 7 mm     90.00 ft / 27.43 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Upper:   0.28" / 7 mm     90.00 ft / 27.43 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.78" / 20 mm   0.47" / 12 mm            -
   2nd:   0.47" / 12 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.28" / 7 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 0.47" / 12 mm, Aft 0.39" / 10 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 707 ihp / 528 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 70 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   39 - 52

Cost:
   £0.023 million / $0.092 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 23 tons, 6.7 %
      - Guns: 23 tons, 6.7 %
   Armour: 56 tons, 16.1 %
      - Belts: 27 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armament: 13 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 15 tons, 4.2 %
      - Conning Towers: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 46 tons, 13.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 156 tons, 44.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 61 tons, 17.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 1.7 %
      - Hull below water: 4 tons
      - Hull above water: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     914 lbs / 414 Kg = 28.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.504 / 0.514
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m,  6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,611 Square feet or 335 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 163 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 181 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc weights:
-- Above deck
---- 0t  Short range wireless (100m)
-- Hull above water
---- 2t extra ventilation & icemaker
-- Hull below water
---- 4t cargo hold for additional spares/supplies

[Urban]

Another quick one! A trawler converted into a minesweeper, mostly because I fancied drawing a cute fishing boat...


MS1 Trawler,  Minesweeper laid down 1911 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   184 t light; 192 t standard; 250 t normal; 297 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (108.00 ft / 100.00 ft) x 21.00 ft x (10.50 / 11.84 ft)
   (32.92 m / 30.48 m) x 6.40 m  x (3.20 / 3.61 m)

Armament:
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      2 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 26 lbs / 12 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.45" / 11 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 429 ihp / 320 Kw = 12.50 kts
   Range 3,950nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 105 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   30 - 40

Cost:
   £0.013 million / $0.052 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4 tons, 1.8 %
      - Guns: 4 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 39 tons, 15.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 73 tons, 29.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 66 tons, 26.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 26.0 %
      - Hull below water: 15 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     471 lbs / 214 Kg = 34.9 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.397 / 0.418
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  13.50 ft / 4.11 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   27.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Quarter deck:   28.00 %,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      8.97 ft / 2.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,220 Square feet or 113 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 160 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 136 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.75
      - Longitudinal: 12.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

(Built to mercantile standards)

Misc weights:
-- Above deck
---- 0t Short ranged wireless (100m)
-- On deck
---- 40t Minesweeping gear
---- 10t Construction reserve
-- Hull below water
---- 15t Additional damage control equipment & pumps

[The Rock Doctor]

I feel the range is pretty high for a small trawler - I'd expect maybe half or a third of that, given the mercantile origin.

But otherwise, nice.

[Desertfox]

Considering its a fishing trawler that no longer carries fish and its coal powered, it wouldnt be too hard to use the fish storage for coal.

[Urban]

I feel the range is pretty high for a small trawler - I'd expect maybe half or a third of that, given the mercantile origin.

But otherwise, nice.

Good catch (ha)! I think you're right, I bloated the range to use up a surplus of available composite strength, without really thinking about whether that was reasonable for a fairly small trawler. Even accounting for packing coal wherever it could be without using it for pillow stuffing...

I've adjusted the max range to 3950m, increased the top speed to 12.5kts (about as quick as a steam trawler got at this point I think) and the cruising speed to a cool 10kts.

[Urban]

New gunboat, a dedicated riverrine craft this time- heavily based on the British Insect-class gunboats!


RGB01,  River Gunboat laid down 1915

Displacement:
   527 t light; 559 t standard; 600 t normal; 632 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (220.00 ft / 220.00 ft) x 36.00 ft x (4.50 / 4.70 ft)
   (67.06 m / 67.06 m) x 10.97 m  x (1.37 / 1.43 m)

Armament:
      2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.93lbs / 49.41kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.94lbs / 5.87kg shells, 175 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
      4 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm 80.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 244 lbs / 111 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   143.50 ft / 43.74 m   2.10 ft / 0.64 m
   Ends:   0.45" / 11 mm     76.50 ft / 23.32 m   5.30 ft / 1.62 m
   Upper:   1.00" / 25 mm   220.00 ft / 67.06 m   4.20 ft / 1.28 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.45" / 11 mm            -
   2nd:   0.45" / 11 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.45" / 11 mm
   Forecastle: 0.37" / 9 mm  Quarter deck: 0.37" / 9 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.45" / 11 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,003 ihp / 748 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 2,300nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 73 tons

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0.056 million / $0.223 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 37 tons, 6.2 %
      - Guns: 37 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 112 tons, 18.6 %
      - Belts: 54 tons, 9.0 %
      - Armament: 10 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 45 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Towers: 2 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 60 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 314 tons, 52.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 73 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0.7 %
      - Above deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,543 lbs / 700 Kg = 14.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.75

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.589 / 0.595
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 92
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  6.50 ft / 1.98 m,  6.50 ft / 1.98 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Quarter deck:   30.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Average freeboard:      5.30 ft / 1.62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,733 Square feet or 533 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 174 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 256 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.35
      - Longitudinal: 0.90
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc weights:
-- Above Deck
---- 4t 1915 Fire control for 6" guns
---- 0t Short range wireless set (100m range)

[eltf177]

Would it be worth the effort to make the 6-inch guns on the Gunboat mount and hoist? Those are big shells to be manhandling...

[The Rock Doctor]

Knocking the speed down a couple of knots might offset the weight of the hoists. 

Useful concept, though.  I tend to enjoy playing with river boats.

[TacCovert4]

Yeah, I'd suggest either hoists for 6in guns, or taking the guns down to 5in.  Either would probably work just fine.  Thinking towards the duties of a gunboat, if you want it to use its guns in direct fire, 4-5in would probably give you a lot better effective firepower through rate of fire.  6in guns are superior if you want to use the gunboat primarily as army support to bring heavy guns to bear. 

Honestly, if you're going for 'heavy fire support', I might suggest that you can shorten the length of the guns.  45 caliber guns are giving you a good balance of armor penetration.  But if you're putting such heavy guns on a boat for riverine use, you could probably use 6in 40s.  Or even 8in/30 caliber guns if you really wanted heavy fires....couple 1-2 short-barreled 8in guns with a couple of 3in/45s for direct fire use, and you'd have a balance for both duties.

[Urban]

Good calls all, thank you! Just a question for my own curiosity, how would a hoist work for an armoured but not fully enclosed deck mounted gun, would it just be a hatch and a crane behind the mount or something more elaborate? Didn't have much luck finding any photo references.

My intent was to have a vessel that could A. bully/scare off lesser gunboats and B. offer direct fire support to land actions either inshore or river. I was initially considering having the main guns be howitzers, but edged that out in favour of the 6 inchers in the end, as per the Insects it was based on. It's interesting that you mention lowering the caliber of the guns, because in 1939 they upgraded a few of the Insect-class' guns to 50 instead of 45. That may have been due to what guns were available to replace the aging ones however, and by that time they were used only as supply barges and for coastal bombardments anyway. I'd like to keep the speed up as having the extra power to fight against the flow of a river is a good advantage I think, but not totally opposed to cutting it.

I'll do some springsharp shenanigans later and see what compromises can be made!