Iberian Destroyers

[Kaiser Kirk]

The 1915 Iberian turn completes a bunch of "E" class, which are posted.
It also starts and fully pays for a bunch of "F" class, which are not posted.

Looking at the Iberian thread, Darman had posted a 1913 Destroyer Leader, which he had 2 versions of.
The 1915 budget amount did not match either one.
the seakeeping is "   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability"
Which is a notch below "poor". 
That might be ok if it was meant for the Med, but as a DDL it needs to go everywhere.

Plus the gap between the foredeck, where the guns are, and the bow, is 2.25m - about 7 feet.
Which means 'A' gun can't fire dead ahead.

Anyhow, I took the DDL he posted, updated the engines to 1915, put the guns & misc wt on, and then played
with the hull & freeboard until it worked out.

I wound up bringing the total up to 1000ts, and fitting in some reserve wt.

F-Class, Iberian Destroyer Leader laid down 1915

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,039 t standard; 1,163 t normal; 1,262 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (326.84 ft / 321.52 ft) x 32.15 ft x (9.84 / 10.42 ft)
   (99.62 m / 98.00 m) x 9.80 m  x (3.00 / 3.18 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm 40.0 cal guns - 33.84lbs / 15.35kg shells, 210 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      Weight of broadside 135 lbs / 61 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 21,252 shp / 15,854 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 6,450nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 223 tons

Complement:
   99 - 129

Cost:
   £0.178 million / $0.713 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 1.8 %
      - Guns: 21 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 584 tons, 50.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 293 tons, 25.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 163 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 95 tons, 8.2 %
      - Hull void weights: 35 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 32 tons
      - Above deck: 28 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     378 lbs / 171 Kg = 10.7 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.46
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.410
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  19.85 ft / 6.05 m,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m,  14.93 ft / 4.55 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.43 ft / 3.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,017 Square feet or 559 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 136 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 0.55
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Designed as a Destroyer Leader for squadrons
of other classes, providing LR Radio and Flag facilities.

35t - Wt reserve.

25t - LR Wireless
3t - FC 1908

20t - Flagship Facilities
12t - 6x 18" Torpedoes.

[Jefgte]

Direct drive, 1 shaft, 21,252 shp / 15,854 Kw = 30.00 kts

Probably 2 shafts

...the seakeeping is "   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability"
Which is a notch below "poor".
That might be ok if it was meant for the Med, but as a DDL it needs to go everywhere...

"Good sea boat" is necessary for oceans works.

However, correct DD for 1915.
35t reserve is a good point.

[Desertfox]

I believe this is the F-class, I designed it.

There's a few more ships in this thread: https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7562.0.html

F-class, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1915

Displacement:
   955 t light; 988 t standard; 1,100 t normal; 1,189 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (310.00 ft / 310.00 ft) x 31.50 ft x (8.80 / 9.30 ft)
   (94.49 m / 94.49 m) x 9.60 m  x (2.68 / 2.84 m)

Armament:
      1 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal gun - 120.28lbs / 54.56kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck and hoist mount, 1915 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.99lbs / 5.89kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
      1 raised mount
     2 x Single mounts on sides forward
      Weight of broadside 172 lbs / 78 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.60" / 15 mm         -         0.60" / 15 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,689 shp / 16,180 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 201 tons

Complement:
   95 - 124

Cost:
   £0.183 million / $0.733 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 44 tons, 4.0 %
      - Guns: 44 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 552 tons, 50.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 316 tons, 28.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 145 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 42 tons, 3.8 %
      - On freeboard deck: 37 tons
      - Above deck: 5 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     330 lbs / 150 Kg = 2.9 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.448 / 0.458
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forward deck:   18.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Aft deck:   52.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.16 ft / 4.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,219 Square feet or 578 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 60 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 147 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 0.56
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

5t - 1908 FC
25t - LR + SR Wireless
12t - 6x 18" TT

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks Fox,
since I posted this, my Seach Fu found that thread.
I have to say, not sticking potential new players
with unbuilt destroyers with 6" guns. The F is far better
than the Norse, and there's the Med to patrol,
but it's the same general size as the DDL
without the Flag facilities Darman was looking for.

I did find and Post your Tigre from that thread as Darman
seems to have laid that down.

I just adapted Rocky's 1914 cruiser design from that thread to this :

Caballero de la Mancha, Iberian Cruiser laid down 1915

Displacement:
   5,300 t light; 5,569 t standard; 6,007 t normal; 6,358 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (485.51 ft / 479.00 ft) x 47.90 ft x (18.70 / 19.51 ft)
   (147.98 m / 146.00 m) x 14.60 m  x (5.70 / 5.95 m)

Armament:
      8 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 1,082 lbs / 491 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   395.18 ft / 120.45 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 127 % of normal length

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 2.95" / 75 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 53,000 shp / 39,538 Kw = 30.20 kts
   Range 8,220nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 788 tons

Complement:
   340 - 443

Cost:
   £0.835 million / $3.339 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 308 tons, 5.1 %
      - Guns: 308 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 1,003 tons, 16.7 %
      - Belts: 529 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armament: 119 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 334 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,008 tons, 33.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,785 tons, 29.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 707 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 197 tons, 3.3 %
      - Hull void weights: 100 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 41 tons
      - Above deck: 56 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,021 lbs / 1,824 Kg = 35.4 x 6.1 " / 155 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.497
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10.00 %,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m,  21.65 ft / 6.60 m
      - Forward deck:   45.00 %,  21.65 ft / 6.60 m,  19.36 ft / 5.90 m
      - Aft deck:   37.50 %,  11.15 ft / 3.40 m,  11.15 ft / 3.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   7.50 %,  11.15 ft / 3.40 m,  11.15 ft / 3.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.52 ft / 5.03 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,150 Square feet or 1,407 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 371 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 1.39
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

100t Spare

31 - FC
25 - LR Radio

36t   4T3 21"
5t     Paravanes

[Kaiser Kirk]

I figured I should expound, as I don't want to dump on the design.

From that thread, Darman ASKed for the one big gun on in. 
that's a player's prerogative. But he did not post it or complete any.

As mod, I am concerned about getting the position ready for a new player,
so I want the designs to be relatively solid, not experimental.

The new players should be free to do their own experiments, not worry about
correcting prior ones or patching giant holes in their fleet. 

[Desertfox]

They could always patch those holes by selling me their ships!  ;D 8)

[TacCovert4]

I figured I should expound, as I don't want to dump on the design.

From that thread, Darman ASKed for the one big gun on in. 
that's a player's prerogative. But he did not post it or complete any.

As mod, I am concerned about getting the position ready for a new player,
so I want the designs to be relatively solid, not experimental.

The new players should be free to do their own experiments, not worry about
correcting prior ones or patching giant holes in their fleet.

Ok good.  Because I've been trying to figure out how to put my 7in gun as main battery for a DD.....

[Kaiser Kirk]

Rocky had a small cruiser with a big gun he posted up not that long ago.

I once fielded a 1880s/90s design for an Italian 'torpedo ram' with a 10" spinal mount... err fixed main gun.
I figured at 1-2000 yards, you're basically just pointing that way, give it a couple degrees elevation and point (the ship) and fire*.
I believe it also had underwater tubes in the bow and could make about 20 knots - blazing for the era.

*of course, since you would have to time the firing to the pitch and yaw going through the waves
...it would be a wave motion gun...

Wandering off into Musing on the subject :
Darman's destroyers remind me of the French WW1 designs,
The unbuilt French M89 had 140mm fore/aft but the actually built Aventurier class had the 100mms.
They didn't get back to the 140mm range until they had 2000+ ton large destroyers, when they had 138.6mm.

The US Erie class, or the Dutch Flores were both fairly small with 6" and reportedly worked fine.
The Flores were even viewed as excellent shooters in shore bombardment. Apparently the Dutch had worked on
measures for gunfire support that helped.

I know on the Iowa they reportedly pitched badly in seas, supposedly because that long narrow bow- which is the cheat for great length
also has little floatation, and so can get buried easily.

I'd suppose a long narrow low bc hull with big guns at the ends would have similar issues,
while a wider beamier hull of the same displacement might not - the Flores were 7.5:1.
That would explaining why small cruisers reportedly seemed to work better than 'Zerstorers'.


Anyhow, something for a live player to explore :)