Norse CDS design thread

Kaiser Kirk · November 07, 2021, 09:46:18 AM

Norse ships needed :

D) A <10000 ton, best if <6000t class of 'Coast Defense ships'. Probably with 250/50 two-gun main guns. Draft needs to be 4-5m. Torpedo nets (1t/m length) if not a TDS. Range ~3000nm, so it can get across the Atlantic.

AA guns can be 75/50.
Torps 21".

The Rock Doctor · November 07, 2021, 05:37:22 PM

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917

Displacement:
   6,675 t light; 7,023 t standard; 7,384 t normal; 7,672 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (403.81 ft / 396.98 ft) x 78.74 ft x (13.78 / 14.22 ft)
   (123.08 m / 121.00 m) x 24.00 m x (4.20 / 4.33 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.70lbs / 228.93kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,493 lbs / 1,131 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.98" / 152 mm   258.04 ft / 78.65 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.01" / 51 mm   258.04 ft / 78.65 m   12.99 ft / 3.96 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.98" / 152 mm   2.99" / 76 mm      5.98" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.99" / 76 mm   2.99" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm        -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.01" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.01" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.98" / 152 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,052 shp / 13,467 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 649 tons

Complement:
   397 - 517

Cost:
   £1.020 million / $4.082 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 716 tons, 9.7 %
     - Guns: 716 tons, 9.7 %
   Armour: 2,232 tons, 30.2 %
     - Belts: 749 tons, 10.1 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 249 tons, 3.4 %
     - Armament: 367 tons, 5.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 817 tons, 11.1 %
     - Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 662 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,669 tons, 36.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 709 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 397 tons, 5.4 %
     - Hull below water: 80 tons (DC + Extra)
     - Hull above water: 80 tons (CC + Extra)
     - On freeboard deck: 80 tons (Torps etc)
     - Above deck: 157 tons (LR Wireless, SR Wireless, Remote sensing, FC)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,636 lbs / 7,546 Kg = 34.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.45
   Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 12.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.92 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.99 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 21.82 ft / 6.65 m, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.58 ft / 4.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,862 Square feet or 2,124 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Kaiser Kirk · November 07, 2021, 07:06:32 PM

Nice.
We'll see what else is offered, but this could replace the 1893 Freki class.

Kaiser Kirk · November 08, 2021, 10:55:31 PM

So I tried for a more compact version.
Not surprisingly, belt armor was what went.
The small machinery area allows a protective deck, behind the main belt, so ~145mm res.
which is put at 45mm, so proof against up to ~270mm splinters aka any cruiser.
No TDS, but liberally covered in armor. Very very tough for a cruiser.
That smaller machinery means a fair bit slower as well - 18 vs. 21.

The Finnish Vainamoinian was 93m and 3900t, so I'm quite a bit bigger than that.
I went with single 6" instead of the 120mm.

I did not bother with LR, as this should be working near Norse bases.
Range is just 3000nm, so it can make it's way across the Atlantic, but I would expect it would base hop.

Not as well rounded a vessel, but 2/3rds the cost.

Gullenbursti, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917

Displacement:
   4,712 t light; 5,104 t standard; 5,320 t normal; 5,494 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (392.15 ft / 383.86 ft) x 51.18 ft x (14.76 / 15.17 ft)
   (119.53 m / 117.00 m) x 15.60 m x (4.50 / 4.62 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 507.06lbs / 230.00kg shells, 160 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
8 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 87.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,782 lbs / 1,262 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   191.93 ft / 58.50 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   191.90 ft / 58.49 m   8.86 ft / 2.70 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   191.93 ft / 58.50 m   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
     Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.30" / 160 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.51" / 140 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.76" / 70 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,671 shp / 5,723 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 390 tons

Complement:
   310 - 404

Cost:
   £0.896 million / $3.582 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 844 tons, 15.9 %
     - Guns: 844 tons, 15.9 %
   Armour: 1,610 tons, 30.3 %
     - Belts: 647 tons, 12.2 %
     - Armament: 276 tons, 5.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 656 tons, 12.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 281 tons, 5.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,810 tons, 34.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 609 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 167 tons, 3.1 %
     - Hull below water: 5 tons
     - Hull void weights: 47 tons
     - Hull above water: 5 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 25 tons
     - Above deck: 85 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,741 lbs / 3,965 Kg = 18.3 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.17
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.642 / 0.645
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   25.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
     - Forward deck:   25.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Aft deck:   25.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Quarter deck:   25.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Average freeboard:      14.90 ft / 4.54 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,940 Square feet or 1,388 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 520 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.82
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

25mm upper deck
50mm upper belt from 4.2 to 2.2m
Main belt from 2.2m to -1.3m
45mm Protective Deck crown at 1.7, lower edge at -0.8.

50t Reserve

85t FC
0t SR Radio
25t Searchlight tower

5t Climate control
5t Damage control

Jefgte · November 09, 2021, 01:07:02 AM

I like this kind of ship.
I think that 18kts is too slow for 1917.

Round number is better ~~4712t~~ => 4800t ;)
--------------
After a look on Iberian speed PDN, BB, BC, AC, CL, 19.5kts-20kts-21kts is the usual (minimum) speed.
So, 18kts is really too short.

Kaiser Kirk · November 09, 2021, 08:40:23 AM

It's Norse, for the Fjords and rivers and coastlines.
Not really meant to work with his fleet. The existing Norse Coast Defense Ships have speeds from 8- 13knots.

Frenrir / Hati/Skoll were all built in 1893 and badly need replacement.
Vidopnir, the monitor, is 1899, and could just be refurbished, or replaced.

Coincidentally, 3 of Rocky's version buys slightly more than 4 of my compact version.
So depending on which is chosen, I can scrap the 4 old ships to help pay for 3/4 of the new.

https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7088.msg90533.html#msg90533

The Rock Doctor · November 09, 2021, 08:51:05 AM

A different take on my initial design, going all-forward so the ship can maximize firepower in narrow confines (where maneuvering may not be practical). This costs a bit in terms of protection and miscellaneous weight.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917

Displacement:
   6,675 t light; 7,023 t standard; 7,384 t normal; 7,672 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (403.81 ft / 396.98 ft) x 78.74 ft x (13.78 / 14.22 ft)
   (123.08 m / 121.00 m) x 24.00 m x (4.20 / 4.33 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.70lbs / 228.93kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
      1 raised mount
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,493 lbs / 1,131 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   258.04 ft / 78.65 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.50" / 38 mm   258.04 ft / 78.65 m   12.99 ft / 3.96 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.98" / 152 mm   2.99" / 76 mm      5.98" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.01" / 51 mm   2.01" / 51 mm        -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm        -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.01" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.01" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.00" / 127 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18,052 shp / 13,467 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 649 tons

Complement:
   397 - 517

Cost:
   £1.020 million / $4.082 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 716 tons, 9.7 %
     - Guns: 716 tons, 9.7 %
   Armour: 2,055 tons, 27.8 %
     - Belts: 626 tons, 8.5 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 186 tons, 2.5 %
     - Armament: 385 tons, 5.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 817 tons, 11.1 %
     - Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 662 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,872 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 709 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 371 tons, 5.0 %
     - Hull below water: 67 tons
     - Hull above water: 67 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 80 tons
     - Above deck: 157 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,184 lbs / 7,341 Kg = 33.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.92 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.99 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 21.82 ft / 6.65 m, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 17.85 ft / 5.44 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m, 13.88 ft / 4.23 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.58 ft / 4.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,862 Square feet or 2,124 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.84
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Jefgte · November 09, 2021, 10:04:23 AM

QuoteNot really meant to work with his fleet.

Being able to work with the Fleet can be helpful. => Support from a fleet of cruisers and destroyers to defend a port, a strait ...

QuoteThe existing Norse Coast Defense Ships have speeds from 8- 13knots.

Just because Norse makes slow ships doesn't mean the Iberians have to have them too.
You can also take Byzantium as a reference.
Byzantium built 4 Armored Gun Boats in 1897
AGB5850T-4x191+8x102-B100-21kts-4000nm.
These ships are still in service and in 1912 they were reclassified as Light Armored Cruiser. In 1920, they are Colonial Cruisers who can work with their counterparts.

Desertfox · November 09, 2021, 11:03:44 AM

Vainamoinen, Norse Coastal Defence Ship laid down 1918

Displacement:
   3,723 t light; 4,009 t standard; 4,156 t normal; 4,274 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (310.00 ft / 310.00 ft) x 55.00 ft x (15.80 / 16.15 ft)
   (94.49 m / 94.49 m) x 16.76 m x (4.82 / 4.92 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 504.32lbs / 228.75kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 6.10" / 155 mm 45.0 cal guns - 114.46lbs / 51.92kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 74.9 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.59lbs / 6.16kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,529 lbs / 1,147 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   210.00 ft / 64.01 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   1.00" / 25 mm   100.00 ft / 30.48 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.00" / 127 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 5,565 shp / 4,152 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 265 tons

Complement:
   258 - 336

Cost:
   £0.829 million / $3.314 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 614 tons, 14.8 %
     - Guns: 614 tons, 14.8 %
   Armour: 1,109 tons, 26.7 %
     - Belts: 497 tons, 12.0 %
     - Armament: 179 tons, 4.3 %
     - Armour Deck: 405 tons, 9.8 %
     - Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 201 tons, 4.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,564 tons, 37.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 433 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 235 tons, 5.7 %
     - Hull below water: 50 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 85 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,769 lbs / 2,617 Kg = 12.1 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.543
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   30.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     - Aft deck:   25.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m, 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     - Average freeboard:      11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,788 Square feet or 1,095 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 562 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

60t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
100t - Torpedo Nets
50t - Electric Motors

Kaiser Kirk · November 09, 2021, 03:55:01 PM

Quote from: Jefgte on November 09, 2021, 10:04:23 AM

Just because Norse makes slow ships doesn't mean the Iberians have to have them too.

Um, Jefgte, it's a "Norse CDS design thread"
:)

Desertfox · November 09, 2021, 03:58:38 PM

I went with the sloooow option, but threw in electric drive for torpedo surviveability and maneuverability in confined spaces. I like it enough I might build some for the IJA.

Jefgte · November 09, 2021, 04:14:52 PM

CAG6000, Norse Colonial Armored Gunboat laid down 1917

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 374 t standard; 6 710 t normal; 6 978 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (406,82 ft / 406,82 ft) x 68,90 ft x (13,60 / 14,05 ft)
   (124,00 m / 124,00 m) x 21,00 m x (4,15 / 4,28 m)

Armament:
6 - 9,84" / 250 mm 50,0 cal guns - 504,70lbs / 228,93kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
2 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 13,63lbs / 6,18kg shells, 180 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3 481 lbs / 1 579 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,92" / 125 mm   282,15 ft / 86,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1,50" / 38 mm   282,15 ft / 86,00 m   11,81 ft / 3,60 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 49,21 ft / 15,00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   2,76" / 70 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm     -           -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4,72" / 120 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16 480 shp / 12 294 Kw = 21,00 kts
   Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 604 tons

Complement:
   369 - 481

Cost:
   £1,147 million / $4,590 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 828 tons, 12,3 %
     - Guns: 828 tons, 12,3 %
   Armour: 1 816 tons, 27,1 %
     - Belts: 597 tons, 8,9 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 184 tons, 2,7 %
     - Armament: 314 tons, 4,7 %
     - Armour Deck: 676 tons, 10,1 %
     - Conning Towers: 45 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 604 tons, 9,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 569 tons, 38,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 710 tons, 10,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 183 tons, 2,7 %
     - Hull below water: 28 tons
     - Hull above water: 28 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 20 tons
     - Above deck: 107 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10 783 lbs / 4 891 Kg = 22,6 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 13,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,616 / 0,620
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,90 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20,17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   17,50 %, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 15,75 ft / 4,80 m
     - Forward deck:   32,50 %, 15,75 ft / 4,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
     - Aft deck:   32,50 %, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
     - Quarter deck:   17,50 %, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m, 12,47 ft / 3,80 m
     - Average freeboard:      13,74 ft / 4,19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20 808 Square feet or 1 933 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,41
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

82t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
28t for additionnal pumps
28t for additionnal ventilation
20t reserved

Kaiser Kirk · November 10, 2021, 12:19:41 AM

Interesting mix,
fun category :)

I went with a Sverige layout both times,
but Rocky's all forward is intriguing.

The length is somewhat fixed.
The draft should be <4.5m, so brought
that down a little.

Cut the freeboard down 0.7m.
Added some beam.

Got slower with mixed firing.
Interesting both Rocky and Jefgte make 21kts.

Got rid of the upper belt and upper deck.
The 65mm protective deck is behind the Armor belt,
which rises .5m above and below the deck edges.

Unlike the bigger designs, no TDS, no nifty electric drive like fox.
The sheer amount of beam and space mean it still can
take 2 torps and ...maybe..make it.
The curious thing is while at 4800t and no TDS it can 'take' 2.2 torps,

Gullenbursti II, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917

Displacement:
   4,800 t light; 5,196 t standard; 5,512 t normal; 5,764 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (391.53 ft / 383.86 ft) x 59.06 ft x (13.94 / 14.47 ft)
   (119.34 m / 117.00 m) x 18.00 m x (4.25 / 4.41 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.84" / 250 mm 50.0 cal guns - 507.06lbs / 230.00kg shells, 160 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.23lbs / 6.00kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
8 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 87.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,782 lbs / 1,262 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.51" / 140 mm   191.93 ft / 58.50 m   11.32 ft / 3.45 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   191.90 ft / 58.49 m   8.04 ft / 2.45 m
     Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.30" / 160 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.51" / 140 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 6,424 shp / 4,792 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 4,100nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 568 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   319 - 415

Cost:
   £0.891 million / $3.563 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 844 tons, 15.3 %
     - Guns: 844 tons, 15.3 %
   Armour: 1,642 tons, 29.8 %
     - Belts: 613 tons, 11.1 %
     - Armament: 252 tons, 4.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 738 tons, 13.4 %
     - Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 241 tons, 4.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,907 tons, 34.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 711 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 167 tons, 3.0 %
     - Hull below water: 5 tons
     - Hull void weights: 47 tons
     - Hull above water: 5 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 25 tons
     - Above deck: 85 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,839 lbs / 4,463 Kg = 20.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.610 / 0.615
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   25.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     - Aft deck:   20.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     - Quarter deck:   25.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      12.66 ft / 3.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,740 Square feet or 1,555 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 533 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The length is somewhat fixed.
The draft should be <4.5m, so brought
that down a little.

Cut the freeboard down 0.7m.

That gives
3.5m Weather Deck
1.55m Top Main belt
1.05m Maindeck
-1.4m lower edge protective deck
-1.95 Bottom Main belt
-3.5m Engineering.
-4.04m double bottom.

50t Reserve

85t FC
0t SR Radio
25t Searchlight tower

5t Climate control
5t Damage control
So this is the 2nd try at Gullenbursti

Kaiser Kirk · November 10, 2021, 01:15:14 PM

A larger vessel.

Brandenburg layout,
shallow draft and low freeboard.

Since MTBs and DDs can follow it into the shallows
a triple layer torpedo net, bulge and TDS are featured.

Tanngrisnir, Norse Coast Defense Ship laid down 1917

Displacement:
   6,650 t light; 7,130 t standard; 7,451 t normal; 7,708 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (392.15 ft / 387.14 ft) x 59.06 ft (Bulges 68.90 ft) x (14.44 / 14.94 ft)
   (119.53 m / 118.00 m) x 18.00 m (Bulges 21.00 m) x (4.40 / 4.55 m)

Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 480.81lbs / 218.09kg shells, 165 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.20lbs / 1.45kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,370 lbs / 1,529 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.89" / 175 mm   251.64 ft / 76.70 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.18" / 30 mm   135.47 ft / 41.29 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   1.18" / 30 mm   251.64 ft / 76.70 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.50" / 38 mm   251.64 ft / 76.70 m   13.85 ft / 4.22 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 37.73 ft / 11.50 m

- Hull Bulges:
      0.51" / 13 mm   251.64 ft / 76.70 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      6.89" / 175 mm
   2nd:   1.18" / 30 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.18" / 30 mm

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 6.89" / 175 mm, Aft 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 10,058 shp / 7,503 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 577 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   400 - 521

Cost:
   £1.100 million / $4.399 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 944 tons, 12.7 %
     - Guns: 944 tons, 12.7 %
   Armour: 2,514 tons, 33.7 %
     - Belts: 957 tons, 12.8 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 193 tons, 2.6 %
     - Bulges: 38 tons, 0.5 %
     - Armament: 544 tons, 7.3 %
     - Armour Deck: 716 tons, 9.6 %
     - Conning Towers: 66 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 377 tons, 5.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,377 tons, 31.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 802 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 438 tons, 5.9 %
     - Hull below water: 186 tons
     - Bulge void weights: 66 tons
     - Hull above water: 66 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 25 tons
     - Above deck: 95 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,078 lbs / 6,386 Kg = 29.5 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.677 / 0.677
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      14.91 ft / 4.55 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,955 Square feet or 1,668 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 564 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Length :
The KM Brandenburgs were 115.7m long
and fit 3 twin 280mm guns.

Norse docks are 120m so used that limit.

The 8 x 120 are fitted in 8 single mounts
Each shielded against <=155mm splinters.

24 68
A Q X
13 57

Armor :
The deck armor is proof against 350mm splinters.

Misc Wt :
65t - Reserve
95t - FC
0t - SR Radio
25t - Searchlight platform

65- Climate control
66- Damage control
120- Torpedo nets

TacCovert4 · November 10, 2021, 02:27:12 PM

I like this layout much better for a CDS for the Norse.

My primary issue with the Norse and CDS's is that while the individual Scandinavian states in this historical period loved the things, the Norse as a whole don't 'really' need them. DDs or maybe some small cruisers equipped heavily with 120mm guns would work well for fighting DDs and TBs in the Baltic, torpedoes give them a punch against capital units or heavy cruisers. The Norse have a battle fleet and the ability to build and maintain a battle fleet.

I'll work on a "Baltic" Battleship for the Norse instead. Something of a halfway house between Rocky's 'Monitors' which would honestly be one of the ship types they'd have to deal with, and a true Battleship. I just don't see them building much in the way of a 5-8,000t heavy cruiser with short range and guns that are oversize for fighting most extant cruisers but far too small to ever threaten a capital unit. Presuming that the Norse have twin mounts for capital-ship sized guns (IIRC 350mm and 400mm), it would make much more sense for them to do an AQY small Battleship as shallow drafted as possible and designed for the Baltic (modest speed, heavy TDS, highly maneuverable, moderate armor).