Norse CDS design thread

Desertfox · November 10, 2021, 03:08:04 PM

While I agree that some "pocket battleships" could be quite useful, I don't think these Norse CDS are for the Baltic per-say. I believe they are more for the North America theater including the St Lawrence seaway and possibly the Great Lakes. They could also be useful in the Irish Sea backing up torpedo boat squadrons.

Jefgte · November 10, 2021, 03:39:29 PM

QuoteWhile I agree that some "pocket battleships" could be quite useful, I don't think these Norse CDS are for the Baltic per-say. I believe they are more for the North America theater including the St Lawrence seaway and possibly the Great Lakes. They could also be useful in the Irish Sea backing up torpedo boat squadrons.

QuoteBeing able to work with the Fleet can be helpful. => Support from a fleet of cruisers and destroyers to defend a port, a strait ...

Tanngrisnir is similar to CAG6000
Same armament but 6650t-B175-18kts vs 6000t-B125-21kts

TacCovert4 · November 10, 2021, 04:42:06 PM

I could see then working in the great lakes, maybe the bays along the Erican coast. But in Europe....eh.

Kaiser Kirk · November 10, 2021, 08:54:27 PM

Purpose :
Basically, the Norse player felt like having a bunch of gunboats/monitors of various sizes. As long as they have some utility, aren't seriously flawed, and don't eat up a massive part of the budget,
I don't see the harm in continuing that for the successor player.

I actually have more heartburn about the huge expense Iberian made, making so many docks and slips 300m.
It is terribly nice to be able to make *tons* of ships, but that could have bought allot of IC or BP...and ships.
I'm sure Darman had some vision for them that I just miss.

I'd also like to point out the Norse do not have have territory in the Baltic. So a purely 'Baltic' battleship doesn't work.
The Norse have- to me, the least viable nation, picking up Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Karalia and a pocket of Russia. Its a very very cold nation with limited growing areas. Which apparently is far more prosperous than I think.

As for the utility :

The terrain of the Norse coast favors them, Scotland has a incised coastline, Ireland has hideyholes, and the Canadian littoral region and St. Lawrence seaway work that way to.
In an invasion of any of these places, these could be a problem.

Having a ship that can zip out and remove supply ships moving past.
You could escort your supply chain with big ships- tying them up, or you could escort the supply ships with cruisers...that can't kill these.

Given the draft of foreign battleships and armored cruisers anything big enough to kill them...can't catch them.
So the foe would either have to send in cruisers, or smaller craft. Which might not fare well against light coastal defenses or supporting vessels. After all the Norse have other gunboats.
Not impossible, but probably difficult.

Offensively, instead of tying battlewagons to beacheads as fire support, these can actually do the job.

All for a relatively low "cost".

The Norse did build a 160m dock at Chicago, so the Great Lakes are one additional location. In which case it would be dominant.

Jefgte · November 11, 2021, 05:31:16 PM

=> Norse Fleet need Light Cruiser too
After the Danae class:
1915 - 4800t - 6T1x155 - 4x47 - 30kts
The Geilo class:
1918 - 5800t - 3T2x155 - 8x100 - 30kts
T2x155 available in 1917

Norse Light Cruiser laid down 1918

Geilo-Gjovik-Gorgen-Gauske

Displacement:
   5 800 t light; 6 035 t standard; 6 436 t normal; 6 756 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (491,03 ft / 488,85 ft) x 52,49 ft x (17,04 / 17,69 ft)
   (149,66 m / 149,00 m) x 16,00 m x (5,20 / 5,39 m)

Armament:
6 - 6,10" / 155 mm 50,0 cal guns - 120,29lbs / 54,56kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 3,94" / 100 mm 50,0 cal guns - 32,30lbs / 14,65kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,19lbs / 1,45kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 993 lbs / 450 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,99" / 76 mm   367,45 ft / 112,00 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,01" / 51 mm   118,11 ft / 36,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2,99" / 76 mm   0,79" / 20 mm      1,97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4,02" / 102 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 55 000 shp / 41 030 Kw = 30,05 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 721 tons

Complement:
   359 - 467

Cost:
   £1,142 million / $4,569 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 237 tons, 3,7 %
     - Guns: 237 tons, 3,7 %
   Armour: 1 029 tons, 16,0 %
     - Belts: 514 tons, 8,0 %
     - Armament: 106 tons, 1,7 %
     - Armour Deck: 370 tons, 5,7 %
     - Conning Towers: 39 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 1 984 tons, 30,8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 284 tons, 35,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 636 tons, 9,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 266 tons, 4,1 %
     - Hull above water: 116 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5 719 lbs / 2 594 Kg = 50,3 x 6,1 " / 155 mm shells or 1,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,515 / 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   17,50 %, 24,93 ft / 7,60 m, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m
     - Forward deck:   32,00 %, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m, 21,13 ft / 6,44 m
     - Aft deck:   33,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
     - Quarter deck:   17,50 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
     - Average freeboard:      17,67 ft / 5,38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 17 334 Square feet or 1 610 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 425 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,46
      - Overall: 1,00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t for Long Range Marconi
24t for 1913 Fire Control
50t for climatisation
50t for additionnal pumps
50t Flag facilities
24t for 8TTx21"
17t reserve

TacCovert4 · November 12, 2021, 02:29:04 PM

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 10, 2021, 08:54:27 PM
Purpose :
Basically, the Norse player felt like having a bunch of gunboats/monitors of various sizes. As long as they have some utility, aren't seriously flawed, and don't eat up a massive part of the budget,
I don't see the harm in continuing that for the successor player.

I actually have more heartburn about the huge expense Iberian made, making so many docks and slips 300m.
It is terribly nice to be able to make *tons* of ships, but that could have bought allot of IC or BP...and ships.
I'm sure Darman had some vision for them that I just miss.

I'd also like to point out the Norse do not have have territory in the Baltic. So a purely 'Baltic' battleship doesn't work.
The Norse have- to me, the least viable nation, picking up Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Karalia and a pocket of Russia. Its a very very cold nation with limited growing areas. Which apparently is far more prosperous than I think.

As for the utility :

The terrain of the Norse coast favors them, Scotland has a incised coastline, Ireland has hideyholes, and the Canadian littoral region and St. Lawrence seaway work that way to.
In an invasion of any of these places, these could be a problem.

Having a ship that can zip out and remove supply ships moving past.
You could escort your supply chain with big ships- tying them up, or you could escort the supply ships with cruisers...that can't kill these.

Given the draft of foreign battleships and armored cruisers anything big enough to kill them...can't catch them.
So the foe would either have to send in cruisers, or smaller craft. Which might not fare well against light coastal defenses or supporting vessels. After all the Norse have other gunboats.
Not impossible, but probably difficult.

Offensively, instead of tying battlewagons to beacheads as fire support, these can actually do the job.

All for a relatively low "cost".

The Norse did build a 160m dock at Chicago, so the Great Lakes are one additional location. In which case it would be dominant.

Having reviewed what guns the Norse have, I'm still not sold on the 250s. I'll design one for the selection process with the 305mm twin turret however, since those exist. I think that's a better balance, and something with the punch to take on cruisers well outside their effective range while having something that could hurt Battlecruisers that get too ambitious.

TacCovert4 · November 13, 2021, 07:02:22 PM

I went with the 305mm turrets for my CDS contestant. Mostly because this gun is going to comfortably outgun any cruisers current or future. It's technically got a bit of range over my 280mm light battlecruisers. Armor is sufficient to defeat most of what a cruiser could throw, and might ding some shells from capital ships in the right circumstances. While it is a tad heavier than the 250mm variants, I think that for something like the North American station, this guarantees that any attempt to take on the Norse in those bays and coastal regions is going to require a capital ship, because even a pair of cruisers can't be guaranteed to kill her.

Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919

Displacement:
   11,807 t light; 12,510 t standard; 13,212 t normal; 13,774 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 98.43 ft x (16.27 / 16.82 ft)
   (160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 30.00 m x (4.96 / 5.13 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.76" / 70 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.55 ft / 4.13 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   2.76" / 70 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 19,123 shp / 14,266 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,265 tons

Complement:
   616 - 801

Cost:
   £2.265 million / $9.061 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,294 tons, 9.8 %
     - Guns: 1,294 tons, 9.8 %
   Armour: 4,202 tons, 31.8 %
     - Belts: 1,653 tons, 12.5 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
     - Armament: 744 tons, 5.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,401 tons, 10.6 %
     - Conning Towers: 171 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 679 tons, 5.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,440 tons, 41.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,406 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.5 %
     - Hull above water: 70 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 12 tons
     - Above deck: 110 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,188 lbs / 14,600 Kg = 37.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
   Metacentric height 10.0 ft / 3.0 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.34 ft / 4.68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 36,058 Square feet or 3,350 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern

The Rock Doctor · November 13, 2021, 07:06:44 PM

Interesting option; I think you need to tweak the main battery layout though.

Kaiser Kirk · November 13, 2021, 11:25:34 PM

Interesting.
Really big, over the 'best' range.
Draft exceeds max at deep draft.

Trimming range to 5000 and 10knots and slimming the BC
might bring the draft up.

I like the 180mm/7" belt and upper belt.
It has potential against an Ludznik class, though that has more guns and more armor.

Rocky is correct that there are only 5 gun mounts for the 6 guns.

I find it curious that many have chosen the 20-21knot range,
The vessels really can't escape anything at that speed,
at 21 they can at least bolster the battleline, but they aren't suitable for it.

It's a matter of value placed on an asset.

TacCovert4 · November 14, 2021, 05:57:44 AM

Yeah I'll tweak it. It was a 15 minute design. The 21kt was for the purpose of letting it operate in conjunction with their standard class bbs if found in the same area, I reduced to 20 to save weight.

TacCovert4 · November 14, 2021, 06:17:44 AM

Ok, so 3 variations on this theme. The first, she's 2000t over the top, but for the purposes of being a flagship for the NA station, she can do that role. She can also take on any armored cruiser or heavy cruiser, and give even 5 guys Pre-Dread or early BB a solid fight. Rather than torpedo nets she has a modern and deep TDS that allows for 6 torpedo impacts with a good chance of limping home.

Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919

Displacement:
   12,097 t light; 12,802 t standard; 13,309 t normal; 13,714 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 98.43 ft x (15.03 / 15.40 ft)
   (160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 30.00 m x (4.58 / 4.69 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.76" / 70 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.55 ft / 4.13 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   2.76" / 70 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 23,911 shp / 17,838 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 912 tons

Complement:
   619 - 805

Cost:
   £2.339 million / $9.357 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,294 tons, 9.7 %
     - Guns: 1,294 tons, 9.7 %
   Armour: 4,223 tons, 31.7 %
     - Belts: 1,661 tons, 12.5 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
     - Armament: 690 tons, 5.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,467 tons, 11.0 %
     - Conning Towers: 171 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 849 tons, 6.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,539 tons, 41.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,212 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.4 %
     - Hull above water: 70 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 12 tons
     - Above deck: 110 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,147 lbs / 14,128 Kg = 36.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
   Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
   Roll period: 13.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.603
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.34 ft / 4.68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,788 Square feet or 3,511 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 690 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.16
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern

TacCovert4 · November 14, 2021, 06:20:28 AM

A slower variation. She's no longer able to operate 'in conjunction with' the battle line if the need arises. But she's a bit cheaper, a bit shallower, and a bit narrower.

Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919

Displacement:
   11,460 t light; 12,151 t standard; 12,641 t normal; 13,032 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (524.93 ft / 524.93 ft) x 95.14 ft x (14.76 / 20.20 ft)
   (160.00 m / 160.00 m) x 29.00 m x (4.50 / 6.16 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck forward
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,991 lbs / 2,717 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.76" / 70 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.55 ft / 4.13 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   2.76" / 70 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 13,044 shp / 9,731 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 881 tons

Complement:
   595 - 774

Cost:
   £2.173 million / $8.691 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,294 tons, 10.2 %
     - Guns: 1,294 tons, 10.2 %
   Armour: 4,159 tons, 32.9 %
     - Belts: 1,651 tons, 13.1 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 233 tons, 1.8 %
     - Armament: 690 tons, 5.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,418 tons, 11.2 %
     - Conning Towers: 166 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 463 tons, 3.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,352 tons, 42.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,181 tons, 9.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 1.5 %
     - Hull above water: 70 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 12 tons
     - Above deck: 110 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,207 lbs / 15,063 Kg = 38.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.48
   Metacentric height 9.1 ft / 2.8 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.452
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.34 ft / 4.68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 36,529 Square feet or 3,394 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 687 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

130t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern

TacCovert4 · November 14, 2021, 06:33:02 AM

And finally the smallest design. While not preferred, as this design sacrifices the useful 6 gun broadside of the others, it does edge under the 10,000t limit while still having the throw weight of 12in guns. It should be noted that while the heavier designs are over the 10,000t limit, their having 12in guns gives them superior armor penetration to anything that's not a capital unit or near-capital unit. The 6 x 12in guns also gives them the throw weight of a cruiser with over 10 x 250mm guns.

Drakar, Norse CDS laid down 1919

Displacement:
   9,542 t light; 10,075 t standard; 10,514 t normal; 10,865 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (475.72 ft / 475.72 ft) x 95.14 ft x (13.55 / 13.92 ft)
   (145.00 m / 145.00 m) x 29.00 m x (4.13 / 4.24 m)

Armament:
4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3.35lbs / 1.52kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,245 lbs / 1,925 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   262.47 ft / 80.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.76" / 70 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.57" / 40 mm   262.47 ft / 80.00 m   13.55 ft / 4.13 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 72.18 ft / 22.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.09" / 180 mm
   2nd:   2.76" / 70 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 12,110 shp / 9,034 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 790 tons

Complement:
   518 - 674

Cost:
   £1.661 million / $6.642 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 913 tons, 8.7 %
     - Guns: 913 tons, 8.7 %
   Armour: 3,637 tons, 34.6 %
     - Belts: 1,537 tons, 14.6 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 207 tons, 2.0 %
     - Armament: 461 tons, 4.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,285 tons, 12.2 %
     - Conning Towers: 147 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 430 tons, 4.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,398 tons, 41.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 972 tons, 9.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 164 tons, 1.6 %
     - Hull above water: 52 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 12 tons
     - Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,236 lbs / 14,168 Kg = 36.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
   Metacentric height 10.3 ft / 3.1 m
   Roll period: 12.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.604
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      13.70 ft / 4.18 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,104 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.18
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

102t - 1912 FC
25t - LR Wireless
25t - 1912 NF Devices
12t - 2 x 2 x 21in TT on Stern

Kaiser Kirk · November 14, 2021, 06:25:52 PM

Ok, I have not posted a POLL before, but apparently there's only 5 options.
..which is a problem when their are 8 qualifiers.

Anyhow, as this is the first time I've tried this I will do it first in this thread.

So, anyone who wants, please vote.
A) Not for one of your own ships
B) Which competing design best meets the Norse need?

Player -Ship – Light Tons – Main Guns, Main Belt, Armor Deck, Max spd.

1. Rocky - EnterShip Name – 6675t, 4x250mm, 152MB, 51mmm AD, 21kts
2. Rocky - "All Forward" – 6675t, 4x250mm, 125MB, 51mmm AD, 21kts
3. Fox - Vainamoinian 3723t, 4x 250mm, 127MB, 64AD, 17kts E
4. Kaiser – GB II 'All Forward' – 4800t, 4x 250mm, 140MB + 65 Protective, 17knts
4. Kaiser - Tanngrisnir – 6650t – 6x 250mm, 175MB, 60 AD, 18kts
5. Jefgte – CAG6000, 6000t, 6x 250mm, 125MB, 50AD, 21kts
6. Tac – Drakar I – 12097t, 6x305mm, 180MB + 65 Protective, 21knts
7.
8. Tac – Drakar Noir – 9542t – 4x 305mm, 180MB + 65 Protective, 18kts
Designs within Parameters

Ultimately, the Norse are looking to spend up to 30,000 tons for 4-6 coast defense ships.
That tonnage could be slightly exceeded, but they would prefer to underrun,
as these are taking the role of ~4000t ships. There could be a Hi/Lo mix.
Expected to operate solo, or in squadrons with gunboats, hiding in shallows.
Maximum Draft was 5m, to enable use of desired areas.

The shallow draft also limits the expected foes.
All designs had torpedo defenses and QF guns for light craft defense.

250mm designs preferred, that did not exclude 305mm, so the Drakars are included.

As for the utility of the 250 vs. 305,
that is an interesting conversation.
I think the performance of historic 10"/40s compared to a generation later 12/45 & 12/50 is misleading.
The Navalism 10/45 and 10/50 are fairly decent weapons, which fire faster. Which should make spotting easier.

The more likely opfor is either escorts the vessel cwants to engage, or enemy cruisers/destroyers/mtbs with drafts <5m, which they are likely both able to penetrate armor at all combat ranges.
As for capital units, If a 4000t Norse ship can serve as 'Fleet in being' and tie up 1 or more enemy capital units as escorts, that is a 'win'.

Kaiser Kirk · November 14, 2021, 06:39:33 PM

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 14, 2021, 06:25:52 PM

3. Fox - Vainamoinian 3723t, 4x 250mm, 127MB, 64AD, 17kts E

This was a tough choice for me.
Especially as I could not choose my ships !!

I almost chose Jefgte's CAG6000 - as a nice compact vessel, affordable in numbers, with a good broadside.

Either one hiding up a river, inlet or Fjord could be a planning problem for an opposing commander,
or they could be easily tasked in a gunfire support role with the monitors, freeing up more valuable capital ship.