Norse Battlecruiser design thread

Kaiser Kirk · November 06, 2021, 10:46:55 PM

Norse ships needed :

A) 1916 Destroyer – 1500 tons , 120/50 main gun, range 5000+nm at 12-14kts.
Equipped with Basic Hydrophones, DC. 1% disp in climate control.

B) a 1918 Battlecruiser or fast battleship. 30+knts, geared drives, ~8000nm at 12knts, can be AoN, min 70mm main deck, either 2-gun or "pair of twins" (4-gun) 405/45 main guns, twin or single or casement mount& hoist 155/50 secondaries, 0.5% in 'climate' and 0.5% in 'damage control'.

C) A 1917 fleet support ships around 8400tons 5-6000nm @ 12kts, 21kts max.

D) A <10000 ton, best if <6000t class of 'Coast Defense ships'. Probably with 250/50 two-gun main guns. Draft needs to be 4-5m. Torpedo nets (1t/m length) if not a TDS. Range ~3000nm, so it can get across the Atlantic.

AA guns can be 75/50.
Torps 21".

Explanations :

A) I need to replace Khryses's Snekkja class of DD.

1916 Destroyer – 1500 tons , 120/50 main gun, range 5000+nm at 12-14kts.
Equipped with Basic Hydrophones, DC.

Normally, what players do with their position is none of my concern.
Khryses chose to scrap hundreds of Walter's small destroyers. Ok.
He also chose to replace them with a run of 28 Zerstorer style destroyers.
With 4x 6.1" they are heavily overgunned and will fair poorly in the North Sea,
they also have a 12:1 L:B, with a .4 BC.
Which I consider a bit much for the North Sea and Arctic.
They have some misc wt problems, with insufficient Fire Control.
Overall they are pretty cool units, and might be interesting in the Med or Red Sea,
but history says vessels of this size with guns of that size did not get great reviews.
So since he does not seem to be with us, I will replace it.

B) Walter alternated Battleships and Battlecruisers. Desertfox's update included a pair of nice Battleships. So I need a pair of nice Battlecruisers. A 'Pair of twins' turret for the new 405/45 was in the works and will be ready for 1918.0.

1918 Battlecruiser/Wagon – 30+knts, geared drives, ~8000nm at 12knts, can be AoN, min 70mm main deck, "pair of twins" (4-gun) 405/45 main guns, twin or single or casement mount& hoist 155/50 secondaries, 0.5% in 'climate' and 0.5% in 'damage control'.

This would oppose the Roman Respublica class and it's likely follow ons, or comparable Wilno vessels.

C) Walter built the first of what was to be 4 x 7000t fleet support ships, but then never followed up.

D) The oldest Norse Monitors/Coast Defense ships are ancient.

The Rock Doctor · November 07, 2021, 05:58:13 AM

Looks like there were 270m slips available so the capital ships won't have any real constraints on size.

I feel that a quad 405mm ship is going to be really wide and that'll inhibit speed/seakeeping somewhat. Given that Walter had used multiple classes of historical American battleships for inspiration, I'm tempted to sketch out something based on the Lexingtons.

The Rock Doctor · November 07, 2021, 06:35:05 AM

First take on a Lexington class.

-Went with default shell weight and what I could find for rounds carried, consistent with Walter's approach
-Protection consistent with Lexington except heavier deck armor
-Walter didn't round off the machinery output
-Walter went with 1% climate control and damage control each
-I moved the secondaries to deck level since at some point the Norse might decide heavy seas are a problem for hull casemates.

I've attached the .sship file in case folks want to play further.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1918

Displacement:
   39,443 t light; 41,559 t standard; 43,537 t normal; 45,119 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (861.84 ft / 853.02 ft) x 105.32 ft x (30.84 / 31.72 ft)
   (262.69 m / 260.00 m) x 32.10 m x (9.40 / 9.67 m)

Armament:
8 - 15.94" / 405 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,044.19lbs / 927.23kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
14 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1918 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 18,147 lbs / 8,231 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.01" / 178 mm   623.36 ft / 190.00 m   16.11 ft / 4.91 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 11.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.24" / 57 mm   554.46 ft / 169.00 m   28.31 ft / 8.63 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.63 ft / 26.10 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   5.98" / 152 mm      9.02" / 229 mm
   2nd:   4.02" / 102 mm   4.02" / 102 mm      4.02" / 102 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm        -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.99" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 2.99" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.01" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 203,406 shp / 151,741 Kw = 32.50 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,559 tons

Complement:
   1,506 - 1,959

Cost:
   £8.053 million / $32.212 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,540 tons, 8.1 %
     - Guns: 3,540 tons, 8.1 %
   Armour: 10,842 tons, 24.9 %
     - Belts: 2,900 tons, 6.7 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,303 tons, 3.0 %
     - Armament: 2,820 tons, 6.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 3,499 tons, 8.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 320 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 7,338 tons, 16.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,395 tons, 37.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,094 tons, 9.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,329 tons, 3.1 %
     - Hull below water: 395 tons (Extra DC)
     - Hull above water: 395 tons (Extra CC)
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons (Flag)
     - Above deck: 439 tons (10 t S/R wireless, 25 t L/R wireless, 50 t remote sensing, 354 t FC)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48,623 lbs / 22,055 Kg = 24.0 x 15.9 " / 405 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29.21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.99 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 33.10 ft / 10.09 m, 27.26 ft / 8.31 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 27.26 ft / 8.31 m, 21.42 ft / 6.53 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 21.42 ft / 6.53 m, 21.42 ft / 6.53 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 21.42 ft / 6.53 m, 21.42 ft / 6.53 m
     - Average freeboard:      23.94 ft / 7.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 62,695 Square feet or 5,825 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 996 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Kaiser Kirk · November 07, 2021, 09:29:51 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 07, 2021, 05:58:13 AM
Looks like there were 270m slips available so the capital ships won't have any real constraints on size.

I feel that a quad 405mm ship is going to be really wide and that'll inhibit speed/seakeeping somewhat. Given that Walter had used multiple classes of historical American battleships for inspiration, I'm tempted to sketch out something based on the Lexingtons.

Mimicing Lexington - that's kinda the fun of this.

I will note that his Splendid Cats had more belt armor, so the regression is odd. I was expecting more Hood.
But I think it's more fun to have many people try their hand.

Oh, and if waiting until 1919 to start, sloped belts become an option. I figured the next battlewagon class.
Replacing the scrapped Torpedo boats is taking a ton of ...tonnage.

Walter had a 405mm, but didn't start the quad mount, so there's straying from the original. Which is why I gave the 2-Gun option.
Oddly the player didn't take 2-gun, but single, but I have edited that.

While I noted Walter went with higher Climate/DC, I was establishing minimums to keep Norse practices.
Esp in Climate control, technology has brought down the 'cost' for the Parthians.
As for 'Damage control'...grumble grumble.

Question, I see some folks make sure their SHP winds up an even number, but I don't see a mechanism for that in SS, and they aren't winding up with weird knot totals.
So how is that accomplished?

Desertfox · November 07, 2021, 10:18:25 AM

Since I see Rocky is doing Lexington, I'll try to do a Renown. Do we know which shipyards would be open for these? Walter was having one set be "British" and one be "American".

Jefgte · November 07, 2021, 10:37:47 AM

Quote...Question, I see some folks make sure their SHP winds up an even number, but I don't see a mechanism for that in SS, and they aren't winding up with weird knot totals.
So how is that accomplished?

Adjust the speed after the comma.
ex: 42000shp => 27,2354kts
Ditto for displacement.
Adjust the draught after the comma.
14500t => 5,8654m

Kaiser Kirk · November 07, 2021, 12:21:31 PM

While I know Walter echoed American/Brit designs in the pregame builds,
the starting players were pretty 'blind' as to what others were making.

That is no longer the case. I think we should be looking at ships that will be effective in Navalism against Roman and Wilno ships.

The choice of doing one in 1918, or waiting for 1919 and inclined belts is another interesting one.

The BC that will be best known to the Norse at laydown would be Respublica with 340mm guns and 27-28knots.
That has a lot more punch than the German 11-12" the Brits were looking at.
Further, while early WWI British fuses and shells failed on oblique angles against >9" armor,
that is not necessarily the case here.

Still a variety of concepts will be nice.
I may do a French Quad style, since Khyrses arranged a quad turret.

As for which shipyards, the Norse have a large number of docks, and
I can arrange any to be available.

I was presuming a 220m yard, but there are 270m available.

Right now I have the sheets set up so the 40,000 ton Ullr /Skadi start in 1918,
and a 270m dock is building in Quebec and will finish when they do.
A 220m or less length would be easier, but 270m works.

Thanks for the info Jefgte.

For displacement I just add range to get an even number in most cases.

As the Support and CDS designs come in, I'll reduce the Destroyer/Sub builds
and scrap some older ships to fit them in.

Kaiser Kirk · November 07, 2021, 09:15:02 PM

here is my effort at a 400mm Battlecruiser.
I used the 'pair of twins' or 4g Quad mounts,
with a 'Dunkerque ' style ship but a little bigger.
I did delay it to 1918 so a sloped belt could be fitted.

It is interesting to compare to my ships.

Pregame I made the decision to explore the guns/Armor side vs. the speed size.
This is slightly larger than my ships.
With the more advanced armor they have comparable belt armor, but
this has an armored deck which grants more flotation when damaged,
while mine has a protective deck that further bolsters her belt armor.
Mine also has more deck armor.

Because ME remains the same, the 400L45 has less MV than my 365L45.
So I have a better sectional density and better belt penetration. I don't think the
deck armor factors in at current ranges.
So it comes down to my 20 gun broadside trying for cumulative damage vs. it's 8 gun broadside.
This also has no upper belt, so is more subject to QF upper hull damage. Which may or may not matter.

The trade off is that this can dart around the tactical field at great speed, attacking where my battlewagons are not.
The downside is that one of the first things to suffer in combat tends to be speed. Holes at waterline = speed loss. Holes in stack= speed loss. High seas, torpedo hits, mine damage, or fouling from being at sea... all lead to speed loss. Also, while it has collosal range, the units which may escort it do not.

The plus side is this beast could cause havoc with my cruisers, and nothing I have could catch and hurt her unless she stopped to fight. The Down side is...I'm pretty sure a 20,000 ton vessel with 12" guns could claim exactly the same thing. Still, the need to support my scouting cruisers led to my building Stormbringer which has a reasonable chance of beating this, even though 7000t smaller.

The difference is, a 20,000 ton vessel one might risk, but a 41,000 is a keystone of your fleet, so risking it might cause
indigestion to the high command.

Anyhow, the Norse like BCs, so a BC there is.

Quote
Hugin, Norse Fast Battleship laid down 1918

Displacement:
   41,500 t light; 44,118 t standard; 47,089 t normal; 49,465 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (752.84 ft / 744.75 ft) x 108.27 ft x (32.81 / 34.19 ft)
   (229.47 m / 227.00 m) x 33.00 m x (10.00 / 10.42 m)

Armament:
8 - 15.75" / 400 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,969.41lbs / 893.31kg shells, 160 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
16 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
     6 x Twin mounts layout not set
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 17,784 lbs / 8,067 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   491.54 ft / 149.82 m   18.37 ft / 5.60 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   253.18 ft / 77.17 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 15.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.20" / 56 mm   491.54 ft / 149.82 m   31.23 ft / 9.52 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.30 ft / 26.00 m

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
   Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.99" / 330 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 178,000 shp / 132,788 Kw = 30.25 kts
   Range 12,220nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,347 tons

Complement:
   1,597 - 2,077

Cost:
   £8.054 million / $32.217 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,642 tons, 7.7 %
     - Guns: 3,642 tons, 7.7 %
   Armour: 14,107 tons, 30.0 %
     - Belts: 5,311 tons, 11.3 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,252 tons, 2.7 %
     - Armament: 2,879 tons, 6.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 4,189 tons, 8.9 %
     - Conning Towers: 476 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 6,421 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,234 tons, 34.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,589 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,095 tons, 2.3 %
     - Hull below water: 200 tons
     - Hull void weights: 200 tons
     - Hull above water: 205 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 390 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     60,922 lbs / 27,634 Kg = 31.2 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 7.7 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.623 / 0.628
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 30.18 ft / 9.20 m, 28.22 ft / 8.60 m
     - Forward deck:   45.00 %, 28.22 ft / 8.60 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
     - Aft deck:   21.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
     - Quarter deck:   14.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
     - Average freeboard:      24.26 ft / 7.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 60,250 Square feet or 5,597 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 213 lbs/sq ft or 1,039 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

365- FC
25 - LR Radio

25t - searchlight tower
75t admrals quarters

200- climate control
5t paavanes

200- dam control

TacCovert4 · November 08, 2021, 06:39:35 AM

Looks good overall. I didn't have time this weekend, but I'm looking at a design that's sort of between Lexington and Vanguard (Vanguard technically being a 'fully armored battlecruiser'). Go with 8x400s, but in twins, and so forth. I'll try to hash it out as an option.

Desertfox · November 08, 2021, 10:27:48 AM

My take on Renown. Yes Respublica exists but the Norse already have four equivalent BCs that can deal with her. Better to give them something even faster with bigger guns to deal with, while keeping costs down. Saved money can be used on a couple more Selkishire class ACs.

Ragnorak, Norse Battlecruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
   27,259 t light; 29,035 t standard; 30,587 t normal; 31,829 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (756.00 ft / 750.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (30.50 / 31.45 ft)
   (230.43 m / 228.60 m) x 27.43 m x (9.30 / 9.59 m)

Armament:
6 - 15.95" / 405 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,046.16lbs / 928.12kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.29lbs / 54.56kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,537 lbs / 6,140 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   565.00 ft / 172.21 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   185.00 ft / 56.39 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.00" / 25 mm   565.00 ft / 172.21 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78.00 ft / 23.77 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 158,214 shp / 118,028 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,793 tons

Complement:
   1,156 - 1,503

Cost:
   £6.054 million / $24.214 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,290 tons, 7.5 %
     - Guns: 2,290 tons, 7.5 %
   Armour: 5,573 tons, 18.2 %
     - Belts: 1,587 tons, 5.2 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 502 tons, 1.6 %
     - Armament: 1,535 tons, 5.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,739 tons, 5.7 %
     - Conning Tower: 211 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 5,708 tons, 18.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,049 tons, 42.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,328 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 640 tons, 2.1 %
     - Hull below water: 180 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 180 tons
     - Above deck: 280 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35,433 lbs / 16,072 Kg = 17.5 x 16.0 " / 405 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.02
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 34.00 ft / 10.36 m, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
     - Forward deck:   50.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
     - Aft deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      27.32 ft / 8.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 209.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,808 Square feet or 4,256 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 193 lbs/sq ft or 940 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

280t for FC + LR Wireless
180t for Climate Control
180t for Extra Damage Control

Kaiser Kirk · November 11, 2021, 10:04:02 AM

Comments
* Foxy's ship has 23.77m interior beam, and 27.43 exterior, meaning a TDS 1.83m 'deep' with a 25mm bulkhead.
The Norse had the lead in subs and destroyers, and were one of the only 2 nations to feature torpedo nets.
I think they take torpedo defense seriously, something the early battles would reinforce.

*6" belt - how reasonable is this?
For the first BCs, this was inline with lighter ACR armor, and really was inadequate for the battle ranges against German guns prevalent when designed.
Even against 255L45 guns, that is vulnerable past 14,000m. Range to horizon is only about 18,000m.
4000m is not much to dance in. Esp if you turn broadside and they charge the range drops fast.

Then factor in much of the planned battlefield is the North Sea with it's average sight range of 12,000m.
Jutland may have been very interesting if met at 12,000m instead of a rare clear day.

There is keeping the angles oblique - the Brits/USA planned their armor for shallow angles, not broadside.

But is a 250mm planning horizon reasonable?
By time this is laid down, the first Wilno ships with 350mm guns are in service,
while Respublica has been in service with 340mm guns for quite some time.
It is reasonable to assume 'follow ons' will have similar guns.

I expect the numbers for those would be ~250-270mm at 14000m.
But any belt hit would easily punch through a 6" belt.

Lastly, there's the consideration of having less belt than earlier.

So, 9" with keeping the angles oblique does seem the absolute minimum
But more probably "good".

* Armament.
I specified the 400L45 as that was the last gun a Norse player developed.
I expect that is therefore the future main gun caliber.

Technically the Norse player picked "single" as their free mount, and then built a "pair of twins" - which is modeled as 4-gun.
I have revised that so that a "2- Gun" and "Pair of Twins" are available.

"Twins" weigh less than "2-gun" and have worse performance.

I actually prefer 4T2 arrangements to 2T4, Parthia is doing quads because I'm exploring something different.
Still, the Norse player chose to develop a quad mount.
I would guess it would go on the next Norse capital ship.
However, good '2-gun' designs will be seriously considered.

Desertfox · November 11, 2021, 10:49:43 AM

On the armor issue. The historical Renown did have less armor than the preceding Splendid Cats. As to why? There is but one Respublica while the Norse have not one but four Wicklows that can deal with her. The Ragnoracks aren't meant for the North Sea (but could beef up light cruiser squadrons), they are meant to range the Atlantic chasing down Roman raiders and cutting Roman sea lines. They are significantly faster than Respublica and would require an expensive counter from Rome. They don't need heavy armor for that role (and its less likely they run into torpedo armed opponents as well).

I do have to say I hate the fact that SS3 did the twin vs 2-gun options, so confusing... Anyway, fixed that issue, bumped up the TDS, and added nets.

Ragnorack, Norse Battlecruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
   27,735 t light; 29,522 t standard; 31,089 t normal; 32,342 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (756.00 ft / 750.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (31.00 / 31.96 ft)
   (230.43 m / 228.60 m) x 27.43 m x (9.45 / 9.74 m)

Armament:
6 - 15.95" / 405 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,046.15lbs / 928.12kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.28lbs / 54.56kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 14.29lbs / 6.48kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,537 lbs / 6,140 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   600.00 ft / 182.88 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   150.00 ft / 45.72 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.50" / 38 mm   600.00 ft / 182.88 m   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 74.00 ft / 22.56 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 159,772 shp / 119,190 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,820 tons

Complement:
   1,169 - 1,521

Cost:
   £6.103 million / $24.411 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,727 tons, 8.8 %
     - Guns: 2,727 tons, 8.8 %
   Armour: 5,864 tons, 18.9 %
     - Belts: 1,618 tons, 5.2 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 699 tons, 2.2 %
     - Armament: 1,596 tons, 5.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,739 tons, 5.6 %
     - Conning Tower: 213 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 5,764 tons, 18.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,620 tons, 40.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,353 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 760 tons, 2.4 %
     - Hull below water: 140 tons
     - Hull above water: 200 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 140 tons
     - Above deck: 280 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35,583 lbs / 16,140 Kg = 17.5 x 16.0 " / 405 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.02
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 34.00 ft / 10.36 m, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
     - Forward deck:   50.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
     - Aft deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      27.32 ft / 8.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 206.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,808 Square feet or 4,256 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 937 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

280t for 1908 FC + LR Wireless
140t for Climate Control
140t for Extra Damage Control
200t for Torpedo Nets

Kaiser Kirk · November 11, 2021, 06:43:09 PM

First – A question – Should the Norse be building BC type ships – or are the 4 Wiclows enough ?
This could be turned into a "Norse Battleship" thread.... But I am figuring 2 heavy ships.

Second : 1918 is when the guns are available, but waiting until 1919 allows sloped external belts.

Last - I need to clarify something – the point of my above discussion of the minimum belt thickness is the conclusion that 9" is the likely minimum.

The opposing force is not solely Respublica, it's whatever vessels follow after, AND Wilno's ships.
This includes the Lucznik (Archer) class with the 250L45 guns, but also whatever follows them.
In the North Sea, meeting a vessel at <12000m is quite possible, but meeting one with 250mm guns could easily be fatal if you have a 6" belt.
If Rome builds follow on Respublicas, and Wilno builds more Lucznik...or their own response to Respublica (presumably with 350mm), then the Norse BC need to be able to engage them.

Kaiser Kirk · November 11, 2021, 06:58:44 PM

So... I made a basic error with the first version of this, I fitted 400mm instead of 405mm guns.

So I've put a little more effort into it.
It is far more a Richeleu style vessel now, including the rear secondary turrets.
Overall a pretty solid effort , but this ship really is not my preferred style.

I am trying to use the new Norse Quads.
It's not my style of vessel, so not thrilled with it, and the resemblance to Richeleu
makes it feel waaaaaaay to early for 1918..but it makes some sense.

I changed the cruise speed so it now does 9600 @ 14 knots, reflecting it will often be independent and moving around the battleline, not plodding along with it.

I figured out the correct height for a 5.5m high belt if outsloped 12deg...5.58.
The main belt covers from +3 to -2.5m
The TDS now rises above the WL to the bottom of the main deck at +.5.
Since this is an armor deck design,the armor deck is the next level up at 3.0m capping the belt.

Quote
Hugin, Norse Fst Battleship laid down 1918

Displacement:
   41,300 t light; 43,979 t standard; 47,240 t normal; 49,848 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (752.84 ft / 744.75 ft) x 108.27 ft x (32.81 / 34.32 ft)
   (229.47 m / 227.00 m) x 33.00 m x (10.00 / 10.46 m)

Armament:
8 - 15.94" / 405 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,044.19lbs / 927.23kg shells, 160 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
16 - 6.10" / 155 mm 50.0 cal guns - 120.28lbs / 54.56kg shells, 246 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
      1 raised mount
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.99lbs / 5.89kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 18,382 lbs / 8,338 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   491.54 ft / 149.82 m   18.31 ft / 5.58 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   253.18 ft / 77.17 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 12.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.20" / 56 mm   491.54 ft / 149.82 m   32.87 ft / 10.02 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.30 ft / 26.00 m

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm
   Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.99" / 330 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 172,605 shp / 128,763 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,600nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,869 tons

Complement:
   1,601 - 2,082

Cost:
   £8.097 million / $32.389 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,745 tons, 7.9 %
     - Guns: 3,745 tons, 7.9 %
   Armour: 14,287 tons, 30.2 %
     - Belts: 5,173 tons, 11.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,318 tons, 2.8 %
     - Armament: 3,123 tons, 6.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 4,197 tons, 8.9 %
     - Conning Towers: 477 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 6,227 tons, 13.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,861 tons, 33.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,940 tons, 12.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,180 tons, 2.5 %
     - Hull below water: 265 tons
     - Hull void weights: 150 tons
     - Hull above water: 265 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 400 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     59,014 lbs / 26,768 Kg = 29.1 x 15.9 " / 405 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.625 / 0.630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 30.18 ft / 9.20 m, 28.22 ft / 8.60 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 28.22 ft / 8.60 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
     - Aft deck:   36.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
     - Quarter deck:   14.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
     - Average freeboard:      22.99 ft / 7.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 60,362 Square feet or 5,608 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 211 lbs/sq ft or 1,029 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Two Versions.
A 1918 with a simple vertical belt,
or a 1919 with a sloped external belt

A 5.5m high belt,

Cos (angle) = adjacent / hypotenuse.
Vertical belt distance is adjacent,
Hypotenuse is sloped distance.
So
Hypotenuse = adjacent/Cos(angle).

For a 5m height and 10degree slope = 5.08
For a 5.5m height and a 10 deg slope= 5.58

190t Reserve

375- FC
25 - LR Radio

25t - searchlight tower
75t admirals quarters
5t - Paravanes

265- climate control

265- dam control

Decks :
8.0m - Forecastle deck
5.5m - Weather deck
3.0m - battery deck, Armor Deck, top main belt
0.5m - Main Deck - top end belt fore/aft. Top TDS
-2.0m - 2nd deck - botom end belt fore/aft
-2.58 Bottom main belt.
-4.5m - 1st deck
-8.5m - Engineering
-9.5m - Double Bottom

The Rock Doctor · November 11, 2021, 07:24:08 PM

Opposition-wise, Wilno presents the aforementioned Luczniks, the four Angstrom fast battleships, and the two well-armored Szermierz battlecruisers. By 1919, the Norse might realize that Wilno is moving to a 400mm gun for their next series of ships but they won't know much specific about the Czarownik class by the time they lock in their own 1918/1919 plans.

Theoretically, there's also the Five Guys to think about, though I imagine existing Norse designs are sufficient to overwhelm anything they can bring to bear.

Walter had been going for a mixed fleet of BBs and BCs, and that might be the safest bet while the Norse are in caretaker mode. Whatever a new player inherits won't necessarily be optimal for their purposes, but won't be worst-case either. They can build on their own ideas once in place.