Norse Destroyer Design Thread

[Kaiser Kirk]

Norse ships needed :

A) 1916 Destroyer – 1500 tons , 120/50 main gun, range 5000+nm  at 12-14kts.
Equipped with Basic Hydrophones, DC.  1% disp in climate control.


AA guns can be 75/50.
Torps 21".

Explanations :

A) I need to replace Khryses's Snekkja class of DD.

1916 Destroyer – 1500 tons , 120/50 main gun, range 5000+nm  at 12-14kts.
Equipped with Basic Hydrophones, DC.

Normally, what players do with their position is none of my concern.
Khryses chose to scrap hundreds of Walter's small destroyers. Ok.
He also chose to replace them with a run of 28 Zerstorer style destroyers.
With 4x 6.1" they are heavily overgunned and will fair poorly in the North Sea,
they also have a 12:1 L:B, with a .4 BC. 
Which I consider a bit much for the North Sea and Arctic.
They have some misc wt problems, with insufficient Fire Control. 
Overall they are pretty cool units, and might be interesting in the Med or Red Sea,
but history says vessels of this size with guns of that size did not get great reviews.
So since he does not seem to be with us, I will replace it.

[Desertfox]

Flawed ships was part of history. I would suggest keeping at least some of the Snekkja around (call 'em a Fishierite experiment) maybe a batch of 12?

[Kaiser Kirk]

If Khyrses comes back, he's welcome to swap them 1 for 1.
But between the advent of hydrophones, and the poor design choices of a brand new player - I'm not going to saddle the
next Norse player with them.

The Germans at least expected to be fighting in the inland sea of the Baltic, or at times of their choosing in the North Sea.
Trying for extra punch in exchange for some limitations is moderately defensible there. Even then, the Zerstorers were larger ships.

The Norse are expecting to work in the worst seas in all weather. Not the same combat environment at all.

[Desertfox]

Not sure what Khryses did, I tried to replicate the Snekkja just with 120mm guns, and I ended up with a worse ship overall... Do I have a different version of SS3?

Snekkja, Norse Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1,495 t light; 1,556 t standard; 1,811 t normal; 2,015 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (390.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 32.50 ft x (12.50 / 13.42 ft)
   (118.87 m / 118.87 m) x 9.91 m  x (3.81 / 4.09 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.66lbs / 25.25kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      Weight of broadside 223 lbs / 101 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 32,510 shp / 24,253 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 459 tons

Complement:
   138 - 180

Cost:
   £0.324 million / $1.298 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 43 tons, 2.4 %
      - Guns: 43 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 958 tons, 52.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 412 tons, 22.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 316 tons, 17.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 71 tons, 3.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 36 tons
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     447 lbs / 203 Kg = 8.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.415
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  18.50 ft / 5.64 m,  16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.50 ft / 5.03 m,  16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.91 ft / 3.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,802 Square feet or 725 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 146 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 0.54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Kaiser Kirk]

So here is my effort.

Took a name from the historic Draug class.

I wanted to ensure the ship would be reasonable for the North Sea
and arctic seas.

Figuring the Brits sailed the North Sea, took the hull dimensions of a Thornycroft
type destroyer leader as a guide for a suitable vessel. Deepened it by 0.09m.

It's deeper than I would have planned, and a chunkier BC.

Overall seems like a good period ship.
Long term, refits will re-arrange the miscellaneous weight to update it.
But it's meant to be the beginning of the Norse effort in this regards.

Troll, Norse Atlantic Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,570 t standard; 1,746 t normal; 1,886 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (332.92 ft / 328.08 ft) x 31.50 ft x (12.80 / 13.53 ft)
   (101.47 m / 100.00 m) x 9.60 m  x (3.90 / 4.13 m)

Armament:
      5 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 210 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.19lbs / 1.45kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 292 lbs / 132 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 37,016 shp / 27,614 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 317 tons

Complement:
   134 - 175

Cost:
   £0.335 million / $1.338 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 57 tons, 3.3 %
      - Guns: 57 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 974 tons, 55.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 398 tons, 22.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 245 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 69 tons, 4.0 %
      - Hull below water: 5 tons
      - Hull void weights: 10 tons
      - Hull above water: 15 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 33 tons
      - Above deck: 6 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     409 lbs / 186 Kg = 7.8 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.462 / 0.472
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  15.58 ft / 4.75 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.24 ft / 4.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,658 Square feet or 619 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 153 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.02
      - Overall: 0.57
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room




120mm guns are at deck level in A/Q/Y
and superimposed in B/X.
Spray shields are fitted.

10t Reserve

AD
6t FC

OD
18t    2T3 21" Torps
5t anti-mine paravane
2t ASW Harpoons
2t ASW twin-kite paravanes
6t Depth charges

HABW
15t Climate control

HBW
5t Basic Hydrophones

[Kaiser Kirk]

Not sure what Khryses did, I tried to replicate the Snekkja just with 120mm guns, and I ended up with a worse ship overall... Do I have a different version of SS3?

Probably be worth checking.  Could be he was using an off version as well.

In wars I'll do quick sims of folks' ships, usually to figure fuel consumption, and I remember a couple of yours were slightly different.
But with stuff like the hidden numbers rounding BC and SHP, it's hard to get the same anyhow.

Springsharp

SS3b3 is the program we use.  We do not use SS2 or any other software.  If the ship can not be designed from scratch in SS3b3 using our design guidelines and naval technology trees, the design is invalid.

I used now quite the right for a number of my pregame ships, and so sometimes when I open them they are at 0.99, but I had lots of misc wt, so easy to keep them valid. The differences are pretty minor.

[TacCovert4]

Since I sent him the link, I'm reasonably certain he was using the right  SS.   Of course I find with DDs in particular,  if you're designing even remotely close to the edges of the paper, you'll have weird things happen to your comp at random.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Yeah,
it's frequently been DDs to figure out fuel consumption at speed that
I do the quick sims, so if something doesn't line 100% up, I figure
there's some wierd tweek, as you say at that scale SS starts
getting squirrely.

[Jefgte]

Balitc, Norse DD1500t laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1 500 t light; 1 566 t standard; 1 746 t normal; 1 890 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (410,04 ft / 408,46 ft) x 35,53 ft x (10,17 / 10,73 ft)
   (124,98 m / 124,50 m) x 10,83 m  x (3,10 / 3,27 m)

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm 50,0 cal guns - 55,66lbs / 25,25kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     5 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      2 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 13,63lbs / 6,18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      2 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 87,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1916 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      Weight of broadside 306 lbs / 139 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 31 500 shp / 23 499 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 324 tons

Complement:
   134 - 175

Cost:
   £0,318 million / $1,273 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 60 tons, 3,4 %
      - Guns: 60 tons, 3,4 %
   Armour: 13 tons, 0,8 %
      - Armament: 13 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 898 tons, 51,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 410 tons, 23,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 246 tons, 14,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 118 tons, 6,8 %
      - On freeboard deck: 87 tons
      - Above deck: 31 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     453 lbs / 205 Kg = 8,6 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
   Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 12,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,414 / 0,425
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20,21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   22,00 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  14,44 ft / 4,40 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00 %,  14,44 ft / 4,40 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Aft deck:   38,00 %,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  10,83 ft / 3,30 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00 %,  10,83 ft / 3,30 m,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Average freeboard:      12,75 ft / 3,88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 9 011 Square feet or 837 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 148 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,74
      - Overall: 0,52
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t for long range Marconi
6t for Fire Control
32t for 8TT x 533
15t for Control Climat
5t for Hydrophone
5T for 50x90 DC
30t reserve - Minen

Trial speed 32.5kts
Bonus: 0.5

[The Rock Doctor]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1,496 t light; 1,570 t standard; 1,746 t normal; 1,887 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (347.77 ft / 347.77 ft) x 34.78 ft x (11.48 / 12.13 ft)
   (106.00 m / 106.00 m) x 10.60 m  x (3.50 / 3.70 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 50.0 cal guns - 55.82lbs / 25.32kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1916 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1916 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 237 lbs / 107 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.12" / 3 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   2nd:   0.12" / 3 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 32,116 shp / 23,958 Kw = 31.25 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 316 tons

Complement:
   134 - 175

Cost:
   £0.330 million / $1.319 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 70 tons, 4.0 %
      - Guns: 70 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 891 tons, 51.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 415 tons, 23.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 250 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 116 tons, 6.6 %
      - Hull below water: 15 tons
      - Hull above water: 15 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons
      - Above deck: 36 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     431 lbs / 195 Kg = 8.2 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.90

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  21.98 ft / 6.70 m,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.19 ft / 2.80 m,  9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.19 ft / 2.80 m,  9.19 ft / 2.80 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.52 ft / 4.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,653 Square feet or 711 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 162 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 0.55
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc Weight:

15 t BW:  Basic hydrophones plus reserve, or enhanced hydrophones
15 t AW:  Climate control
50 t OD:  24 t torpedos, plus ASW and whatever
36 t AD:  L/R wireless, FC, and a couple extra tonnes for weight reserves.