Vilnius Union Ships, 1920+: Electric Drive Boogaloo

[The Rock Doctor]

For giggles, a 75mm gun on a tiny hull.

At 20 tonnes, it could be carried as payload on a torpedo-boat carrier, for a short trip between said vessel and a juicy land target worth pumping a few rounds into.  Or for some close-in fire support during a raid.  Either way, the guntub would be small and difficult to spot, while the larger torpedo-boat carrier would stand off at a safe distance.

Recovery might be a problem if the target has something fast to dispatch as a interceptor, but in that case take the crew aboard an MTB and scuttle the thing, whatever.

Guntub, laid down 1929

Displacement:
   20 t light; 21 t standard; 22 t normal; 22 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (54.87 ft / 52.49 ft) x 13.12 ft x (2.46 / 2.50 ft)
   (16.72 m / 16.00 m) x 4.00 m  x (0.75 / 0.76 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1929 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      2 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 228 shp / 170 Kw = 13.90 kts
   Range 100nm at 13.90 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 tons

Complement:
   4 - 6

Cost:
   £0.009 million / $0.038 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 12.4 %
   Machinery: 7 tons, 30.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 9.2 %
      - Hull below water: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 lbs / 8 Kg = 1.3 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.61

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 7.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 78 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 83
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  6.89 ft / 2.10 m,  4.92 ft / 1.50 m
      - Aft deck:   45.00 %,  4.92 ft / 1.50 m,  4.92 ft / 1.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.92 ft / 1.50 m,  4.92 ft / 1.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      5.67 ft / 1.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 141.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 439 Square feet or 41 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 13 lbs/sq ft or 64 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.55
      - Longitudinal: 13.16
      - Overall: 0.75
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[The Rock Doctor]

Picture of the guntub.  Pretend the gun shield isn't there, it isn't, but I do a terrible job of drawing guns without the shielding around it.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Interesting ...and kinda cute.
Kinda a motorized barge with a gun.

I'm a little bummed my closest is a river gunboat 3x heavier.

[The Rock Doctor]

It is kind of cute.  I added a couple to my build plan largely on that basis.

[The Rock Doctor]

Newer machinery + lower hull strength requirements mean I can build something with the speed and firepower of a Quackenbruck class sloop on a hull 300 t lighter than Quackenbruck.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1929

Displacement:
   1,425 t light; 1,516 t standard; 1,729 t normal; 1,900 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (309.15 ft / 295.28 ft) x 37.73 ft x (11.81 / 12.65 ft)
   (94.23 m / 90.00 m) x 11.50 m  x (3.60 / 3.85 m)

Armament:
      4 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 67.61lbs / 30.67kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1929 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.74kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1929 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 287 lbs / 130 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17,426 shp / 13,000 Kw = 26.19 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 384 tons

Complement:
   133 - 174

Cost:
   £0.607 million / $2.429 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 76 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 46 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 46 tons, 2.7 %
   Machinery: 535 tons, 30.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 576 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 304 tons, 17.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 192 tons, 11.1 %
      - Hull below water: 25 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 77 tons
      - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,385 lbs / 628 Kg = 20.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.460 / 0.472
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.14 ft / 4.92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,166 Square feet or 666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 223 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.63
      - Longitudinal: 3.28
      - Overall: 0.75
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

Sketching out a refurbishment of the prototype seaplane carrier Oriona.

Aft, a catapult is installed right aft.  The crane gets shuffled a few feet forward; it's probably on one side or the other of the deck rather than centreline.

Amidships, a second pair of single 50mm get added on top of the hanger, which still accommodates up to four float-scout-bombers.

Forwards, the superstructure gets rebuilt; whereas before it was a hanger with top hatch in front of a four-level bridge, now it's a wider but shorter hanger opening forward.  A two-level superstructure is built on top of it.  A second catapult gets plunked on the forecastle.  This still accommodates two float-fighters.

In terms of cost, the superstructure work probably means I'll cost it as a refurbishment, but the actual new materials will be very limited - 10 t for the cats, a few tonnes for the additional 2x50mm and replacement of the 10mm with 4x2 15mm.  I'll work that out later, the original design has plenty of weight reserve to work with.  It'll be in the range of $0.60 and maybe 0.020 BP.

The outcome looks rather brutalist.  The ship is still useful, but with four fast seaplane carriers built or being built, I reckon this ship's new peacetime role will be "catapult training ship" for anybody who's going to launch a seaplane off a Union warship. 

[The Rock Doctor]

For the moment, this is just goofing around; but it does give me a sense of the minimum size for a 450mm-armed armored cruiser, if we really want to call something like that an armored cruiser.  Obviously I'd need a 270m drydock, but that's not a big deal when I have some 250m as it is. 

I've got to develop the 130mm DP, which is not a challenge but might not be available until 1931.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1930

Displacement:
   45,992 t light; 48,275 t standard; 51,464 t normal; 54,015 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (871.61 ft / 853.02 ft) x 114.83 ft x (31.17 / 32.38 ft)
   (265.67 m / 260.00 m) x 35.00 m  x (9.50 / 9.87 m)

Armament:
      6 - 17.72" / 450 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2,976.24lbs / 1,350.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 67.61lbs / 30.67kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1930 Model
     8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      16 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.75kg shells, 500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      8 raised mounts
      16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 19,003 lbs / 8,619 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   554.46 ft / 169.00 m   16.37 ft / 4.99 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   554.46 ft / 169.00 m   29.07 ft / 8.86 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   17.7" / 450 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      15.7" / 400 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -
   4th:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 5.51" / 140 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 3.94" / 100 mm  Quarter deck: 5.51" / 140 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.96" / 380 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 148,793 shp / 111,000 Kw = 30.04 kts
   Range 20,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,740 tons

Complement:
   1,707 - 2,220

Cost:
   £16.375 million / $65.499 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,505 tons, 6.8 %
   Armour: 18,433 tons, 35.8 %
      - Belts: 5,829 tons, 11.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,174 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 3,574 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 7,410 tons, 14.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 446 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,509 tons, 8.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,566 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,472 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 979 tons, 1.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 429 tons
      - Above deck: 550 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     88,178 lbs / 39,997 Kg = 31.7 x 17.7 " / 450 mm shells or 15.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 7.5 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and large transom stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.590 / 0.596
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 33.80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  32.15 ft / 9.80 m,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.18 ft / 7.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 73,954 Square feet or 6,871 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 208 lbs/sq ft or 1,014 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TacCovert4]

I'm going to say that's either a 'Fast Battleship' or a 'Fully Armored Battlecruiser'....depending on point of view

[Kaiser Kirk]

That is one large target....and could be problematic. Not severely so, I already have designs for that tonnage range-
the 42-45,000t Imulhu class, and ...well more...the 57,600t Mastadon class. But I'm trying to hold at 38,000t.

When Parthia demured on attending the Aztec conference there were several reasons, among the many were a curiosity
of where folks would choose to go if there were no limits other than how much of our naval budget do we want to
tie up in one big giant target. 

I have a hunch these 46,000 tonners are representing the upper end , after which it's not affordable to build in numbers that are useful.
Just to build 8 of them over 20 years would require 9.2BP/HY - doable, but a very large chunk of the budgets.
But building them in a shorter window starts being very hard.
Ah the joys of budgeting !

[TacCovert4]

That is one large target....and could be problematic. Not severely so, I already have designs for that tonnage range-
the 42-45,000t Imulhu class, and ...well more...the 57,600t Mastadon class. But I'm trying to hold at 38,000t.

When Parthia demured on attending the Aztec conference there were several reasons, among the many were a curiosity
of where folks would choose to go if there were no limits other than how much of our naval budget do we want to
tie up in one big giant target. 

I have a hunch these 46,000 tonners are representing the upper end , after which it's not affordable to build in numbers that are useful.
Just to build 8 of them over 20 years would require 9.2BP/HY - doable, but a very large chunk of the budgets.
But building them in a shorter window starts being very hard.
Ah the joys of budgeting !

I concur.  I'm building Conqueror.  But I think that before she's even launched I'm going to have another lighter BB in the yards, possibly a Mark 3 of the Monarch-class with 9 x 360s at 24kts.  Just because the expense of something like Conqueror isn't sustainable for the Aztecs.  Not to make a fleet out of.  We're going hard towards carriers as a way to unbalance things in our favor, as we're less backwards in the air than we are compared to everyone in other areas.  But so long as the battleline is considered useful, there will be a low rate of BB production.

[The Rock Doctor]

My overall size is modestly constrained by canal sizes both in North Eryka and in Kiel (which I need to dig out a bit more again).  If I want to use those pieces of infrastructure, the beam can't be any wider and the draft is just about maxxed out as well. 

Cost is not a trivial consideration, either, of course. 

I think if I opt to do something like this, I might try to shave it down to 45,000 t to keep the build time at nine turns.

There's also a question about the armament layout; maybe an all-forward layout makes more sense so the gunnery is maximized during approach phases of the engagement.  However, I'm doubtful I can get three-gun turrets on a 35m beam, so that suggests a less optimal 3x2 layout.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I concur.  I'm building Conqueror.  But I think that before she's even launched I'm going to have another lighter BB in the yards, possibly a Mark 3 of the Monarch-class with 9 x 360s at 24kts.  Just because the expense of something like Conqueror isn't sustainable for the Aztecs.  Not to make a fleet out of.  We're going hard towards carriers as a way to unbalance things in our favor, as we're less backwards in the air than we are compared to everyone in other areas.  But so long as the battleline is considered useful, there will be a low rate of BB production.

Back in Wesworld, I inherited fairly limiting treaty provisions when I took over my Dutch- another reason to do that here.
But as ship size escalated, the Dutch were considering offering a treaty amendment to break battlewagons - like cruisers- into "A" and "B',
with the idea of each primary power being allowed 4 'A' and the remainder of their tonnage could be 'B'.
However, verification and enforcement would be ticklish aspects.

[TacCovert4]

I concur.  I'm building Conqueror.  But I think that before she's even launched I'm going to have another lighter BB in the yards, possibly a Mark 3 of the Monarch-class with 9 x 360s at 24kts.  Just because the expense of something like Conqueror isn't sustainable for the Aztecs.  Not to make a fleet out of.  We're going hard towards carriers as a way to unbalance things in our favor, as we're less backwards in the air than we are compared to everyone in other areas.  But so long as the battleline is considered useful, there will be a low rate of BB production.

Back in Wesworld, I inherited fairly limiting treaty provisions when I took over my Dutch- another reason to do that here.
But as ship size escalated, the Dutch were considering offering a treaty amendment to break battlewagons - like cruisers- into "A" and "B',
with the idea of each primary power being allowed 4 'A' and the remainder of their tonnage could be 'B'.
However, verification and enforcement would be ticklish aspects.

It's been interesting to explore a no-Depression and no-WNT world.  You CAN make slow BBs at 27,000t Light that can hold up in fights with these monsters like the Empress Amelias, Conquerors, etc....but they're situational only. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's been interesting to explore a no-Depression and no-WNT world.  You CAN make slow BBs at 27,000t Light that can hold up in fights with these monsters like the Empress Amelias, Conquerors, etc....but they're situational only.

I am more curious as to how  different players intend to use their forces.
The really large ships are a result of wanting cruiser speed with battleship guns and armor. .what is the fleet concept for using that?
The high speed is essentially tactical - though for Snip the distance from Havana to his holdings is essentially tactical.
I can see a number of potential uses, the question is which will be chosen, and will it be worth the investment ?

Hmm it's occurred to me we're polluting Rocky's ship thread :)

Probably have covered the bases, though I could split topic and move it if folks want.

[The Rock Doctor]

My capital ships are fast because I figure it improves the odds of them breaking past the British Isles if I'm at war with Rome or the Northern Kingdom.