Byzantine Empire 1918-1922

[Desertfox]

Distribution of weights according to SS2 is done with normal displacement, so thats what I've been using since it comes with a handy percentage already included.

[The Rock Doctor]

Maybe that adjusts my work on ASW ships a bit.

[The Rock Doctor]

So does the title of this thread mean there will be no Byzantine Empire after 1924?

[Jefgte]

So does the title of this thread mean there will be no Byzantine Empire after 1924?

Who wants to attack me? Vilnius?

[The Rock Doctor]

So does the title of this thread mean there will be no Byzantine Empire after 1924?

Who wants to attack me? Vilnius?

*Gives Foxy the side-eye*

[Desertfox]

*Whistling innocently* I have no idea what you're talking about...

[Kaiser Kirk]

Oh I wasn't insulting it in the least.  In fact it'll be quite a match for the Weapon class, despite not being designed as a direct counter.  It's a solid 'Frigate' cruiser, by Aztec parlance.

Jefgte has an annoying tendency to make tough ships.
The last..10? Parthian cruisers are 8x165mm, while the preceding had 10x165mm.  These Byzantine ships have comparable speed and armor and bigger guns. I'd have to go back to the Saka & Margaetae 180mm raider cruisers to really counter. So fielding these might lead to a Parthian reaction...like theCapharact light armored cruisers I've designed so many variations on.

but..this one has a flaw.

Sorry Jefgte,
this ship has turrets, and so needs 1.0 hull.

"Cruiser Architecture: For all years, Cruisers with turrets shall have a composite hull strength > 1.0."

On the other hand, you don't need to stick to 6000 tons as a result.

Due to weights, turrets are indeed likely necessary for the twin 191mm to be useful. 

SC6, Byzantine Empire Class Colonies laid down 1919

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 273 t standard; 6 895 t normal; 7 392 t full load

Armament:
      6 - 7,52" / 191 mm 45,0 cal guns - 214,42lbs / 97,26kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1919 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
   
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,87
      - Longitudinal: 1,12
      - Overall: 0,90

[Kaiser Kirk]

But you're calculating off the normal displacement instead of the light displacement?

From rules:
Mercantile Standards/Auxiliaries

"A ship in government service may be built to mercantile standards if armament and armor take up no more than 2% of the ship's weight at normal displacement.  Such ships could include colliers, transports, survey ships, and others..."

OK , I misread rules.  :-[

Yep thats what it says.
Don't know why that one rule specifies normal and most others light....but that's what it is.

[Jefgte]

Jefgte has an annoying tendency to make tough ships.
The last..10? Parthian cruisers are 8x165mm, while the preceding had 10x165mm.  These Byzantine ships have comparable speed and armor and bigger guns. I'd have to go back to the Saka & Margaetae 180mm raider cruisers to really counter. So fielding these might lead to a Parthian reaction...like theCapharact light armored cruisers I've designed so many variations on.

The 165mm and 180mm are greater than the 6 ". If the Parthians had used the classic 6" for these SCs, the Byzantines would also have installed the 6 ".
Byzantines use the British guns 4", 4"7, 6", 7"5 ...

6x7"5 is the max for 6000t SC.

Byzantium thinks that 6x7"5 are equivalent to 8x165 & slightly less than 8x180.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well, even if the ship is 7000 tons after correcting the 0.9 comp hull issue,
the 6x 7.5" may well be worthwhile

Armor Penetration :
The 191mm has better penetration, but the 165mm somewhat faster ROF.  Neither can penetrate the vitals of the others outside ~10,000m, where the Parthian ROF will matter,  but the Byzantine will be able to penetrate sooner.

I will point out the "other gunhouse" of 20mm on the Byzantine turrets will only stop splinters up to 120mm guns, while the barbettes are vulnerable to the 165mm out to 14,000m - current FC range.


Under Parthia's Naval Artillery, I list the penetration expected from different Parthian guns at various ranges using Logi's Ballistics tool. 
Originally that was for my own use, and I expected whomever the moderator was would use their own chart / tool.
Since that task fell to me, that's the system I use for generating custom gun penetrations.

[Jefgte]

Rework Antalya class Seaplanes Transport to 5200t - LD1919


These seaplane transports are also intended for working with battleships squadrons.
The role of seaplanes on land and on board is to locate and provide informations on enemy forces and their movements.
Assistance in adjusting shots.
Hunt enemy aerial reconnaissance.
-----------------------------
4 seaplanes transports formally in the Plan
- 1 for Marmara Fleet
- 1 for Atlantic Fleet
- 1 for Madagascar Fleet
- 1 for Australian Fleet
------------------------------

Antalya - Adana - Azgar - Assiout, Byzantine Empire Sea Planes Transport laid down 1919

Displacement:
   5 200 t light; 5 364 t standard; 5 952 t normal; 6 423 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (516,73 ft / 516,73 ft) x 68,90 ft x (12,09 / 12,79 ft)
   (157,50 m / 157,50 m) x 21,00 m  x (3,69 / 3,90 m)

Armament:
      2 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,03lbs / 24,05kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,03lbs / 24,05kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      8 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 10 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 373 lbs / 169 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 24 000 shp / 17 904 Kw = 24,55 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 059 tons (20% coal)

Complement:
   338 - 440

Cost:
   £0,713 million / $2,851 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 72 tons, 1,2 %
      - Guns: 72 tons, 1,2 %
   Armour: 16 tons, 0,3 %
      - Armament: 16 tons, 0,3 %
   Machinery: 868 tons, 14,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 028 tons, 50,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 752 tons, 12,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1 215 tons, 20,4 %
      - Hull below water: 178 tons
      - Hull above water: 178 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 800 tons
      - Above deck: 59 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23 170 lbs / 10 510 Kg = 440,7 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 3,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 14,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 96 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,484 / 0,494
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15,00 %,  20,01 ft / 6,10 m,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00 %,  17,72 ft / 5,40 m,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Aft deck:   50,00 %,  32,81 ft / 10,00 m,  32,81 ft / 10,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00 %,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      25,07 ft / 7,64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 373,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 23 381 Square feet or 2 172 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 187 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,55
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

misc weight: 1215t
34t for Top Mast Rangefinder
25t for Long Range Marconi
26t for climatisation
720t for Hangar, repair workshop & 2 aft cranes
80t for 8 Float Planes SHORT 184
330t for Pilots, Air Personnel, armaments, Material & Petrol...

[Jefgte]

D10, Byzantine Empire Colonial Destroyer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 039 t standard; 1 141 t normal; 1 224 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (334,65 ft / 334,65 ft) x 33,46 ft x (9,15 / 9,57 ft)
   (102,00 m / 102,00 m) x 10,20 m  x (2,79 / 2,92 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4,00" / 102 mm 45,0 cal guns - 32,27lbs / 14,64kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal gun - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 220 per gun
     Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1920 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 raised mount
      2 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      Weight of broadside 143 lbs / 65 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 22 200 shp / 16 561 Kw = 30,59 kts
   Range 6 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 185 tons (20% coal)

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0,288 million / $1,152 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 26 tons, 2,3 %
      - Guns: 26 tons, 2,3 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,5 %
   Machinery: 571 tons, 50,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 309 tons, 27,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 142 tons, 12,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 88 tons, 7,7 %
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons
      - Above deck: 28 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     367 lbs / 166 Kg = 11,5 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 12,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,390 / 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17,50 %,  17,81 ft / 5,43 m,  14,53 ft / 4,43 m
      - Forward deck:   32,50 %,  14,53 ft / 4,43 m,  11,25 ft / 3,43 m
      - Aft deck:   32,50 %,  11,25 ft / 3,43 m,  11,25 ft / 3,43 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,50 %,  11,25 ft / 3,43 m,  11,91 ft / 3,63 m
      - Average freeboard:      12,65 ft / 3,86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 6 847 Square feet or 636 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 137 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,17
      - Overall: 0,54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

3t for 1913 top mast rangefinder
25t for LR marconi
3t for additionnal engines ventilation
3t for crew confort ventilation
24t for 2x3TT x 533
5t for Hydrophone
5t for 50x90 DC
10t reserved

[The Rock Doctor]

I like it.

[TacCovert4]

I like it, it's well balanced.

However, I do have some concerns.  The speed is going to be low enough that this DD would have a hard time escaping from some cruisers already in service in 1917, much less contemporary destroyers.  And then the weapons mix is sort of 'neither fish nor fowl'.  6 TTs is solid for a 'gun destroyer', but the gun firepower is going to be a bit on the weak side even when compared to contemporary 1000t DDs. 

It's just fine for colonial sloop work or general patrol work.  But I do feel that this class will be very quickly rendered obsolete and vulnerable to all of its contemporaries.

[Jefgte]

However, I do have some concerns.  The speed is going to be low enough that this DD would have a hard time escaping from some cruisers already in service in 1917, much less contemporary destroyers.  And then the weapons mix is sort of 'neither fish nor fowl'.  6 TTs is solid for a 'gun destroyer', but the gun firepower is going to be a bit on the weak side even when compared to contemporary 1000t DDs.

It's just fine for colonial sloop work or general patrol work.  But I do feel that this class will be very quickly rendered obsolete and vulnerable to all of its contemporaries.

I agree, next TGB700 is made for colonial works, patrols, escort & Capital Ships protection.
This 700t TGB is more economical that the first 1000t DD.
=> I have to replace the 1897-98 colonial 500t TGB - 24 in all.

TGB700, Byzantine Empire Colonial TGB laid down 1920
Displacement:
   700 t light; 736 t standard; 818 t normal; 883 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (261,81 ft / 261,81 ft) x 26,87 ft x (10,07 / 10,60 ft)
   (79,80 m / 79,80 m) x 8,19 m  x (3,07 / 3,23 m)

Armament:
      3 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,03lbs / 24,05kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      1 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm 45,0 cal gun - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1920 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      1 raised mount
      2 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 3 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      Weight of broadside 173 lbs / 78 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18 000 shp / 13 428 Kw = 29,54 kts
   Range 6 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 147 tons (20% coal)

Complement:
   76 - 99

Cost:
   £0,213 million / $0,852 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 31 tons, 3,7 %
      - Guns: 31 tons, 3,7 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,7 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 409 tons, 50,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 222 tons, 27,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 118 tons, 14,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 33 tons, 4,0 %
      - On freeboard deck: 30 tons
      - Above deck: 3 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     237 lbs / 107 Kg = 4,5 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 11,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,404 / 0,415
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   18,00 %,  16,57 ft / 5,05 m,  13,52 ft / 4,12 m
      - Forward deck:   33,00 %,  13,52 ft / 4,12 m,  11,22 ft / 3,42 m
      - Aft deck:   33,00 %,  11,22 ft / 3,42 m,  10,56 ft / 3,22 m
      - Quarter deck:   16,00 %,  10,56 ft / 3,22 m,  11,22 ft / 3,42 m
      - Average freeboard:      12,07 ft / 3,68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 340 Square feet or 403 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 132 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,45
      - Overall: 0,58
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

3t for top mast rangefinder
12t for 1x3TTx21"
3t for forced ventilation
5t for Hydrophone
5t for 50x90kg DC
5t reserved

Trial speed: 31kts
Bonus: 1.46