Parthian vessels 1916 onwards

[Kaiser Kirk]

AA M vs M&H - Eventually, I will probably have M&H for any larger AA mount than MG,
but it's something I'm working towards.

Functionally there should be a ready use locker. The bigger the round, the lower the number in the locker.
After that, sailors will have to pack it up from below the armor deck.
So right now the 90mm, with their 11kg rounds - mostly M&H.

Conceptually, all the AA ammo is one-piece, and I'd have a flashproof chamber at the top of the armor deck, feeding dredger hoists up to the mount.
I'll probably be fitting light shielding to either splinterproof it (20-35mm)....or just to indicate a sealed system (6mm) to isolate from fire/other.

I'm trying to fit AA in "C" and "W" over the main battery, then at the superstructure 'corners'. 
That should give the best all-round base level.

The ship size will govern how many of what.
I kinda want a mix of 57 and 90 right now on those ships worth expending a torpedo on.
The 57 is too big for the role, and I'll downsize to 30-37 eventually, just as the 15 will upgun to 23 (22.5) eventually.

The pre-game vision of mining Port Said with high-speed cruisers, and then mopping up the Byzantine forces in the Red Sea doesn't seem that viable
first with the Treaty of Malta meaning the Byzantines are prepositioned, but also with airpoints able to put dozens torpedo-bearing planes over the sea.
So...back to contesting the SLOC East of Aden.

Torpedoes being the prime threat of course, those calibers are seen as fast enough to engage at distance the lumbering torpedo planes,
but a hard turn to dump speed, followed by unfurling nets is expected to be very effective against aerial torpedo attack...for the bigger ships.
The TDS then handles any that leaks through.

Strafing wise, the 15L70 GAST MGs, which storyline were developed to replace the ancient gardner 15mms mounted for shore/boarding security, are being pressed into service to avoid really close attacks and light bombs.  While viewed as nuisance damage, over time they could effect the ships ability to fend off other things and add up, the 15mm are so light, they get studded on.

[TacCovert4]

I'm shifting my aa in a similar fashion.  And armored similarly.   I'll probably start doing a 20mm other armor to signify the armored gun tub, the shield would only slow down the mount.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I'm figuring a 6mm (1/4") or 8mm (1/3") hardened plate would be proof against Spray, and stray rifle-caliber MG bullets.

[Jefgte]

The pre-game vision of mining Port Said with high-speed cruisers, and then mopping up the Byzantine forces in the Red Sea doesn't seem that viable
first with the Treaty of Malta meaning the Byzantines are prepositioned, but also with airpoints able to put dozens torpedo-bearing planes over the sea.
So...back to contesting the SLOC East of Aden.

For info, in 1922:
4 cruisers
61 TGB, DD, TB & SS
144 MTB 

are in Aden Gulf & Red Sea.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I apparently have not paid sufficient attention, as there was at one time more.
....so this means I can make my raid, blockade Port Said and destroy the Byzantines as they try to exit the Canal !!!
...while that is a great number of MTBs and TBs, I've tried hard to build a fleet that can withstand such attacks.

but the Air points would be annoying.

Oh and that entire lack of a Causis Belli problem.

[Kaiser Kirk]

With the consensus that a three-gun mount would probably not have the qualities that the Parthians desire,
I can either :
A) build a mistake and fix it later
B) look at the 2 competing 3-gun designs I made and realize neither quite meets the goal.

While it might be reasonable to make a 'mistake', the reason I pay for competing new complex designs rather than just handwave it as storylne is I want to field things that work. So new concepts (quad turrets, 3 gun M&H, etc) get doubled. I don't want to field an Invincible with electric turrets that don't actually work and have to be rebuilt - or a pensacola with mounts that rotate fast enough for distance, but not short range. 

So I've down gunned the vessel to  8x 180, kept the speed and added armor.

Royal Nssean X, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
   8,002 t light; 8,497 t standard; 9,410 t normal; 10,140 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (556.83 ft / 551.18 ft) x 54.95 ft x (22.64 / 23.93 ft)
   (169.72 m / 168.00 m) x 16.75 m  x (6.90 / 7.29 m)

Armament:
      8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,436 lbs / 1,105 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   385.83 ft / 117.60 m   11.55 ft / 3.52 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   165.32 ft / 50.39 m   11.55 ft / 3.52 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.31" / 135 mm   1.77" / 45 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   1.38" / 35 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm   0.31" / 8 mm      0.31" / 8 mm
   5th:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 72,986 shp / 54,447 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 7,955nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,643 tons

Complement:
   477 - 621

Cost:
   £2.406 million / $9.623 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 601 tons, 6.4 %
      - Guns: 601 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 1,852 tons, 19.7 %
      - Belts: 957 tons, 10.2 %
      - Armament: 188 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.8 %
      - Conning Towers: 64 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,439 tons, 25.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,726 tons, 29.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,408 tons, 15.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 384 tons, 4.1 %
      - Hull below water: 40 tons
      - Hull void weights: 82 tons
      - Hull above water: 33 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 119 tons
      - Above deck: 110 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,740 lbs / 3,511 Kg = 43.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.490
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.03 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  26.57 ft / 8.10 m,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  24.28 ft / 7.40 m,  21.65 ft / 6.60 m
      - Aft deck:   50.00 %,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   10.00 %,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.70 ft / 5.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,828 Square feet or 1,842 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 449 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.
                   
                   
                  1                        7
                   (d)                  (s)
A (B) [c]                                       [w] (X) (Y)
                   (e)                 (s)
                  2                         8
                   

8.1 7.35   6.6   4.1
The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
                 
The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck at +1.7m
The belt descends to -1.7m below water, for a total height of 3.4m.

3.4m/cos(15) = 3.519 = 3.52m

The end belt is meant to

The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.


50t - Reserve

AD
60t -  Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)

OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
2x 25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
51t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47

HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.

HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.


Decks
+6.6  Forecastle Deck
+4.2  Weather Deck
+1.7   Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.80    Deck
         -1.5   Bottom main belt
-3.30 
-5.80   Engineering
-6.9  Keel, double bottom

[TacCovert4]

To ask, why would you have your foredeck at 35mm, but your end belts at 25mm?  Would seem that they'd at least be the same.  25mm isn't going to stop a whole lot, even in the splinters department, 25-27mm is about what I put on my DDs conning towers and gun mounts to resist shell splinters and some light HE.  It can make some sense for a cruiser's end belts, but I question having 25mm sides to the box, and a 35mm lid, seems the fo'cstle would be either 25mm deck, or the end belts 35mm.  I understand the QD thickness being 'heavy' compared to the end belts, you're trying to prevent plunging fire at long range from knocking out your shaft runs or rudders.

[Kaiser Kirk]

good point.
I expect I changed one and not the other.

For this game, I drew on some long ago read information that armor on the 5"/38 mount on BBs was thicker than that on cruisers so it would stop all BB shell splinters.
Working from that, and needing a number, I came up with..it's under the gun research, I think it's a 6x factor.

25mm should stop splinters from QF nuisance weapons from DDs... and well anything under 150mm.  So a shell may go off above, or just short, or even just in, but won't turn the waterline into a colander.
35mm should stop splinters from weapons up to 210mm - anything non-turreted.

The rest of the deck is thicker primarily so long range Byzantine shots from cruisers/ACs won't penetrate to important areas, or spray splinters there.
I'd rather have 65mm, but weight is tight. 45mm gets me 290mm or less, which covers current and future cruiser weapons.
Early Parthian ships were poorly armored on the QD as shafts are big heavy things fairly immune to splinters, it takes a direct hit.
But the steering issues in wars have caused a reassessment and an uparmor of the QD area.

For the bow I'll likely lower it the deck to 25mm, as I doubt I'll find the weight to up the belt to 35mm.

Hmm, then there's the consideration that most period warships featured a protective deck fore/aft of the citadel.

Edit : for quite sometime to model the protective deck I've made the end belt 3.66m high, indicating a 1 deck level (2.44m) 45deg slope.

[Kaiser Kirk]

aha !
I recall my intent -
the foredeck and QD indeed as protective decks,
the reason the end belt isn't 3.66 is I wanted
a verticle belt there on the waterline, just to proof that vs. the colander effect,
while the deck is conceptually to prevent entry into the hull structure.
|
|   _____
| /
|/

[Jefgte]

I apparently have not paid sufficient attention, as there was at one time more.
....so this means I can make my raid, blockade Port Said and destroy the Byzantines as they try to exit the Canal !!!
...while that is a great number of MTBs and TBs, I've tried hard to build a fleet that can withstand such attacks.

but the Air points would be annoying.

Oh and that entire lack of a Causis Belli problem.

From 1917 to 1922,
DD, TGB, TB increase to 50%
MTB increase to 28%

[Kaiser Kirk]

Sometimes you find a combination of hull parameters that are just perfect for the design, and you get more out of a ship.

I had a beautiful one, 8x 333L43 on an 19,000 ton hull and 29knots, with a 330mm belt and 100mm deck.
...disturbingly good.
...as in something must be wrong...but what ?

Apparently, modeling the main guns as 'deck mounts' rather than 'turret on barbette' saves a tremendous amount of weight !!

[Jefgte]

...Apparently, modeling the main guns as 'deck mounts' rather than 'turret on barbette' saves a tremendous amount of weight !!

But give certainly a worst protection for gunners & all mechanical, hydraulic & electric materials.

Without "turret & barbette"  this nearly is a barbette ship.

[TacCovert4]

Some poor guy running in a hamster wheel to adjust bearing......

[Kaiser Kirk]

Some poor guy running in a hamster wheel to adjust bearing......

Actually, I got to thinking, I could allocate weight to 'Trained Elephants' to assist....
Or since I have swaths of Africa, would anyone buy trained mountain gorillas on my gunnery crews ?

On a more serious note, tinkering...


This is a rework of the Artesmia class into something
more like what Tac is talking about.

As a Destroyer Leader type, I can see it working.
I built 3 DDLs earlier, to support my smaller DDs on distant
stations.

The Magazines are protected with a box, and while the machinery
is not, the total length is <hull length, so there's not
boilers above the waterline or the such.

Had I the spare tonnage, I could see something like this.
But I have a pressing need to replace the antiquated
Artesmias and provide a low-end solo mission vessel.

Khutulun, Parthian Frigate laid down 1923

Displacement:
   3,000 t light; 3,154 t standard; 3,439 t normal; 3,668 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (459.32 ft / 452.76 ft) x 44.29 ft x (13.22 / 13.85 ft)
   (140.00 m / 138.00 m) x 13.50 m  x (4.03 / 4.22 m)

Armament:
      10 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 double raised mount
      8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 5.71lbs / 2.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 753 lbs / 342 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.38" / 35 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.24" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Box over magazines:
   1.38" / 35 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 41,878 shp / 31,241 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 4,480nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 514 tons

Complement:
   223 - 291

Cost:
   £1.091 million / $4.363 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 227 tons, 6.6 %
      - Guns: 227 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 84 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 47 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 30 tons, 0.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,354 tons, 39.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,157 tons, 33.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 440 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 177 tons, 5.1 %
      - Hull below water: 10 tons
      - Hull void weights: 25 tons
      - Hull above water: 13 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 61 tons
      - Above deck: 68 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,588 lbs / 720 Kg = 23.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.454 / 0.462
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forward deck:   29.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Aft deck:   36.00 %,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m,  10.83 ft / 3.30 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.82 ft / 4.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 150.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,833 Square feet or 1,192 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 297 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.71
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 0.75
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room


Resv : 25

AD
23t  FC
25t  LR Radio
10t  Squadron Plot Room
10t Night Fighting gear

OD
20+5 : Scout Floatplane + Gunpowder Cat
36t 4TT3 21"

HAW
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
10t - Additional fire ext

HBW
10t - additional pumps

[Desertfox]

I think the Poles used a trained bear to carry around artillery shells, so it is doable...