Parthian vessels 1916 onwards

The Rock Doctor · October 09, 2021, 10:31:13 AM

Could the updated CAs, with a different approach to armament, fill the niche of these new escort cruisers you plan for? The speed is the same, they're better protected. The hulls are larger, which makes them a bigger target for enemy torpedo craft but the actual material cost to achieve the outcome is about the same.

Kaiser Kirk · October 09, 2021, 10:49:03 AM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 09, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
Could the updated CAs, with a different approach to armament, fill the niche of these new escort cruisers you plan for? The speed is the same, they're better protected. The hulls are larger, which makes them a bigger target for enemy torpedo craft but the actual material cost to achieve the outcome is about the same.

Actually they could fit in that Sentry/Intermediate screen.
I need to tinker with the Misc Wt, to give them the right sensors, but that could really help plug that Hull #s gap.
Hmm, might be worth setting aside some weight for batteries so they can creep and listen - I'm looking at Hydrophones ability to not just pick up subs, but also screw noises at distance,

Nice.

Technically I'll probably call them "Light Armored Cruisers".
I'm thinking the Armored Cruiser lineage will split into "LAC" and "AC", while cruisers split into 'Frigates' (3000t, 0.75 comp) and 'Cruisers (6000t, 0.9).

The Rock Doctor · October 09, 2021, 11:01:25 AM

Cruiser nomenclature is a bit of a problem for me, too, given that mine vary from 2,000 tonnes and 100mm guns to 39,000 tonnes and 400mm guns.

Kaiser Kirk · October 09, 2021, 11:10:47 AM

The "battle cruisers" the Parthians were considering "Heavy Armored Cruisers", but as they get more like really expensive fast dreadnoughts they may change nomenclature.
The Byzantines have long had a pair, which partially motivated Stormbringer as something that can back the scouting line against the Byzantine big ships,
but at 26knots, the Parthians are still considering those just dreadnaughts, as they still have the full 10 heavy guns.

Since I had an "Armored Frigate" on the books, that seemed a reasonable choice for small cruisers.
I am tempted to call the 1500ton DDs sloops or corvettes.

Jefgte · October 09, 2021, 03:53:05 PM

QuoteNice.

Technically I'll probably call them "Light Armored Cruisers".
I'm thinking the Armored Cruiser lineage will split into "LAC" and "AC", while cruisers split into 'Frigates' (3000t, 0.75 comp) and 'Cruisers (6000t, 0.9).

After reading Kaiser, I do not anticipate any changes in my "Construction Plan".

For the future, I am quite seduced by the "Panzerschiff" type.
DD: 6x120
Spahkreuzer: 6x140 - 6x152
SC: 6x191
Heavy SC: 6x234 - 6x254
Pocket BC: 6x305 - 6x343
BC: 6x381 - 6x406

This is what I think today.
;)

Kaiser Kirk · October 09, 2021, 08:27:53 PM

It would be intriguing to design to account for those.
I am bemused by some of your conversions and particularly the CBB7 class.

As you may recall, quite some time ago I posted some CBB designs of my own,
which may get updated and built...or not.

I really understimated how many Land and Deployment points
my vague plans were going to require, on top of 4 dreadnaughts,
all my BP went away...

Kaiser Kirk · October 09, 2021, 09:46:41 PM

I have tried Rocky's suggestion.

Trying to cram the additional tonnage into the ship required cutting somewhere,
and so I tried reducing the fuel loading.
That was very successful, but since I was adding topweight and removing underwater weight,
I lost seakeeping.

By the refurb rules, I can alter the waterline, but not reshape my bow- that's under recon. Shame because that fixed it.
And Recon costs more $ and BP

Ultimately, the way to make it all work cost me 1/4 knot.
I really was tickled that It made 28 knots, so I'm disappointed it's down at 27.75.
Practically it's still pretty good, and now more useful to the fleet as a whole.

one thing - the DC's on the fantail. I fully expect that they are useless, they can be basic refitted off once they've tried the concept.

Buchephalus R1920v2, Parthia Light Armored Cruiser laid down 1894 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   8,890 t light; 9,494 t standard; 10,708 t normal; 11,679 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (488.85 ft / 482.28 ft) x 59.06 ft x (24.28 / 26.00 ft)
   (149.00 m / 147.00 m) x 18.00 m x (7.40 / 7.93 m)

Armament:
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 385.81lbs / 175.00kg shells, 138 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1911 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,457 lbs / 1,568 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   356.89 ft / 108.78 m   10.47 ft / 3.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   356.89 ft / 108.78 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.51" / 140 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 56,475 shp / 42,130 Kw = 27.75 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,186 tons

Complement:
   526 - 684

Cost:
   £0.804 million / $3.217 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 618 tons, 5.8 %
     - Guns: 618 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 2,037 tons, 19.0 %
     - Belts: 1,197 tons, 11.2 %
     - Armament: 363 tons, 3.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 435 tons, 4.1 %
     - Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,975 tons, 18.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,155 tons, 29.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,818 tons, 17.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,106 tons, 10.3 %
     - Hull below water: 756 tons
     - Hull void weights: 50 tons
     - Hull above water: 25 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 165 tons
     - Above deck: 110 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,641 lbs / 5,734 Kg = 34.1 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.542 / 0.552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.96 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   13.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
     - Forward deck:   27.00 %, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
     - Aft deck:   47.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
     - Quarter deck:   13.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.16 ft / 5.23 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,728 Square feet or 1,833 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.84
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room

Considered for 1920 Refurbishment.
Planned in 1913, it kept being delayed.
However the 230L44 guns developed then are still
available.

T2 240L40 : 200t
T2 230L44 : 200t

Old Engines : 3114
Old Bunker : 2189
Old Main Mag : 118g

Armanent
New guns : 413t w armor. Barbette armor unchanged.
New main mag : 118g
New 2nd guns : 301t
- adding a new set of deck level casements
in superstructure
80t Old casement armor retained, +41t new armor for new deck-level casements
New 3rd guns 90AA : 39t

Engines
New Turbines : 28kts : 2403t + 602 turbogen
New bunker 7000nm @ 16kts : 2186ts

Trim : unchanged.

Cost :
Refurbishment : 20% 8.993 = $1.7986
Guns : 794t : 0.794 BP $1.588
Engine : 1975t : 1.975 BP $3.95
Bunker : 2186t : $1.093
Functional Misc Wt : 1056t : 1.056 BP $1.056
Total : 3.825 BP , $9.4856

Time : 8.8+9=17.8 *.25 = 4.456 +2= 6.456mo

Misc Wt :
50t Reserve wt

AD:
62t FC
25t LR Radio
23t 30m Cage Mast

OD:
25t Hulesmeyer
25t War Tuba
25t Night Fighting
9t CO2 Compressor AC
18t 2TT3 21" amidships
50t 2x Kite Balloon
13t Depth charged on fantail

HABW
25t Additional Fire Suppression

HBW
15t - Bow Hydrophones
15t - Amidships Hydrophones
24t - Batteries for silent running
25t - improved pumps
36t 2 sets torpedo reloads
147 Torpedo Nets
494 Turbogenerators

Kaiser Kirk · October 09, 2021, 10:32:49 PM

Ok, now that we've located the missing Conversion efficiency factor
I had to go recalculate the little carriers airgroup.
I still want to fit twin engined, but now can field 10 not 14.
I'm ok with that.
It adds 110 weight, or +0.11BP and +$0.11

Except I just realized I'm doing it wrong.

Airgroups count as armament, not functional Misc weight... so the cost is higher.
it is stated under 7a, but should probably be more prominent.
Argh.
New costs...

1919 Refurbishment of the 1894 Mus-Sag Class.

Baseline cost of Refurbishment : $1.4988

Engines :
0.905 BP , $ 1.810

Fuell
1,454/2000= $0.727

Guns
Cost : 0.244 BP, $0.288

Airgroup :
Cost : 1.65BP, $3.3

Functional Miscellaneous Wt
249t - Turbogenerator (paid above)
140t - Torpedo Nets
24t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
8t - CO2 compressor AC

Cost : 0.446 + $0.446

Totals
BP : 0.905+0.244+1.65+0.446 = 3.245 = 3.25 BP
$ : 1.4988 + 1.810 + 0.727+ 0.288 + 3.3 +0.446 = 10.2068 = $10.21

quote]
Mus-sag, Parthian Seaplane Carrier R1919 laid down 1894 (Engine 1919)

Displacement:
   7,470 t light; 7,830 t standard; 8,638 t normal; 9,285 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (464.54 ft / 459.32 ft) x 52.49 ft x (19.69 / 20.92 ft)
   (141.59 m / 140.00 m) x 16.00 m x (6.00 / 6.38 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 44.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,693 lbs / 768 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   305.12 ft / 93.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   154.17 ft / 46.99 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   301.84 ft / 92.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
   Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25,484 shp / 19,011 Kw = 23.25 kts
   Range 6,900nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,454 tons

Complement:
   447 - 582

Cost:
   £0.463 million / $1.852 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 241 tons, 2.8 %
     - Guns: 241 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 912 tons, 10.6 %
     - Belts: 539 tons, 6.2 %
     - Armament: 33 tons, 0.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 322 tons, 3.7 %
     - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 905 tons, 10.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,316 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,169 tons, 13.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,096 tons, 24.3 %
     - Hull below water: 1,214 tons
     - Hull above water: 833 tons
     - Above deck: 49 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,008 lbs / 8,622 Kg = 106.8 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      26.59 ft / 8.11 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,251 Square feet or 1,696 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 440 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 5.31
      - Overall: 1.06
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

1919 Refurbishment of the 1894 Mus-Sag Class.

The original vessels had arge hulls with the main battery dispersed in deck-edge casements, but no barbettes, and large areas for handling the MTBs. This lack of centerline features and of internal areas, making them easier to convert.

Airgroup :
Waterplane Area : 1696
Seaplane Carrier : /120
= 14.33
Twin Engine Seaplanes = 110 each
Reconstruction Penalty : 1.5x
10 aircraft * 110 * 1.5 = 1650t
Split 825 HBW / 825 HAW

Functional Miscellaneous Wt
249t - Turbogenerator (paid above)
140t - Torpedo Nets
24t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
8t - CO2 compressor AC

Removed Equipment
12 x 60L50 QF
8x 180L40 BL
8 x TB-IV
[/quote]

Kaiser Kirk · October 10, 2021, 04:47:14 PM

now looking at the 1919.5 budget,
and the remaining 1894 classes.

The 1894 Ninlil scout cruisers will be scrapped. They are slow coal burners, too old for the engines to be converted to oil, and
replacing them takes nearly the same BP as they cost.

The 1894 Dragonfly river gunboats are mainly storyline items. I should have some gunboats for the Tigris/Euphrates, and Caspian/Aral. Since there are no opposing vessels....I'll just refurb them. Eventually replace.

The 1894 Hawg class are fleet supply vessels. Those are decently useful.
So I'll replace the reciprocating engines and armament, drape some torpedo nets off them, put in new air conditioning, and call it good.

Hawg, Parthia Fleet Support vessel laid down 1894 (Engine 1919)

Displacement:
   8,962 t light; 9,236 t standard; 10,181 t normal; 10,937 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (400.49 ft / 393.70 ft) x 78.74 ft x (18.04 / 19.17 ft)
   (122.07 m / 120.00 m) x 24.00 m x (5.50 / 5.84 m)

Armament:
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,196 lbs / 542 kg

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,925 ihp / 8,896 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,998nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,701 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   506 - 658

Cost:
   £0.465 million / $1.860 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 183 tons, 1.8 %
     - Guns: 183 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 716 tons, 7.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,626 tons, 25.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,219 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5,436 tons, 53.4 %
     - Hull below water: 2,370 tons
     - Hull void weights: 90 tons
     - Hull above water: 2,250 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 659 tons
     - Above deck: 67 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,086 lbs / 6,843 Kg = 110.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.69
   Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.65

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m
     - Average freeboard:      14.99 ft / 4.57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,466 Square feet or 2,180 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 448 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.04
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc weight :
5150t Resupply support capability - 51,500 tons fleet vessels.
45t - ventilation
25t - long range radio 1904
7t - 1905 Fire control
90t - construction reserve

1904 Refit : 37t
+ Long Range Radio
- 8x 45L40
+8x 60L50

1907 refit : 7t
+ 1905 Fire Control

1919.5 Refurbishment
Original Construction Cost : 8998 / 4 (aux)

Upgrade reciprocating engines from Simple to Complex.

0.36 BP, 0.72$

Replace Armanent :
Upgrade to 1911 165mm
Install 15mm GAST guns
Remove 60mm anti-boat guns
add 90mm AA

Total : 183tons guns

0.183 BP, $0.366

functional
19t FC
25t LR Radio
120t Torpedo Nets

0.164 BP $ 0.164

Non-Functional
1701t fuel, from coal to 3/4 oil and 1/4 oil-sprayed coal.
23t Cage Mast 30m
9t CO2 compressor AC
70t magazines

(Still 5150t support 2250/2250/650)

Total 1802t /2000 = $0.901

Cost :
2.2495$
0.36 BP, 0.72$
0.183 BP, 0.366$
0.164 BP, 0.164$
0.901$
----------------------
Subtotal : 0.707 BP, 4.4005$
*.25 for AUX
Total : 0.18 BP, 1.10$

Kaiser Kirk · December 12, 2021, 04:30:16 PM

So working on Parthia 1920.0, and then 1920.5.

I want to get some large ships started to get their build time ticking.
But I'm aslo trying to move forward on the various refits.
All while finding I don't have enough BP.. argh.

Ok, so I've rebuilt 4/6 Torpedo boat carriers as seaplane carriers.
I don't want the other 2 to fall apart, but not ready to make them into experimental carriers, or more seaplane.

So I'll spend the $1.4 to refurbish them. I can spare that.
At this time, I am not going to worry about their guns or machinery.
I do want to use them as trial beds for the new- to - me MTB-Ds.

So I will build 16 MTB-Ds to replace the old TB-IVs
I will start accounting for the 48 TB-IVs that the 6x TBC used to carry.

Otherwise I will just be doing misc wt.

Current Misc Wt...looking at this I "paid" for many things which you don't "have" to pay for.

Quote
Misc Weight :
140t - Torpedo Nets
48t - Support for 480tons of TBs
128t - Torpedo Reloads ( 8TB x 2 torps x 2t = 4 full reserve loads)
256t - Fuel for TBs (4tx 8TB: 32, so 8 trips)

280t - Berthing for Crew of TBs

960t - 8 x 60t TB

48t - Cranes
25t - Long range radio
20t - 1905 fire control

Want to replace :
(Torpedo boats->New built MTBs in drydocks) = paid

functional Misc wt
20t - 1912 fire control
25t - Long range radio (old was 1904, so an updated version)
32t - Fleet Support for 160tons of TBs
200t - Fleet Support for unspecified ( exploring use as a small tender for Subs/DDs)

SubTotal : 277t

fuel, ammunition and stores, non-functional misc wt
320 - the "doubling" cost of deck craft
48t - Cranes
7t - AC
280t - Berthing for Crew of TBs
256t - Torpedo Reloads (expanded)
256t - Fuel for TBs

Subtotal :1160

Costs :
7,014 tons base
$*0.2 = $ 1.403
277t FMW = $0.277, 0.277BP
1160 F/A/NFMW = $0,58, No BP

Total : $2.26, .277 BP

The New Misc Wt will look like

Quote

1920 Refurbishment :
20t LR Radio
25t 1912 FC

7t CO2 Compressor AC
48t Cranes
640t 8x MTB-D

200t Fleet Supply for 2,000 tons
32 Fleet support for 160t MTB
280t Berthing for crews of MTBs

256t - Ammo Stores Torpedo reloads
256t - Fuel for TBs
140t - Torpedo Nets

Kaiser Kirk · December 12, 2021, 06:23:37 PM

The Vazrya and Stombringer classes are completing in 1920, bringing my fleet to 120x 365mm guns.
Some may say that *Should* be more than enough...
they could even be right....

But with the long build times on large capital ships, I rather want to get my next class Ssarted in 1920.
The first HY will be just 1,000tons, but can ramp up in HY2.

I will only be building 2 at a time, no more of this 4 at once stuff.
Instead I'll make ACs !... which will take a similar amount of tonnage a HY....argh..

So this is the draft battlewagon.
Classic Parthian heavy metal.

You can see that it's a transitional ship in many ways.
Still maintaining a cruiser-proof upper belt, but reduced to thwart just light cruisers,
and still with a protected deck, but an inclined exterior belt.
Still with casements, but featuring deck guns.
With torpedo carrying seaplanes about, the AA armament is boosted.
With ranges creeping up, deck armor has been increased, but it is still split
between two deck levels.

I am tempted to just discard the upper belt but so far our wars have included small
craft in knife fight range.
The Torpedo nets are for that reason too- we've seen saturation attacks,
and while the fleet is working to make those non-feasible, the Parthians
are still worried about massive wave attacks, where it might be best
to deploy nets. The 1913 torpedo tech would include net cutters, but
that still requires multiple hits on a single panel - hard for MTBs/DDs to manage.
There's still a robust TDS behind it to take care of successful hits,
and the interior hull is heavily compartmentalized and very manueverable.

Bulge :
As typical for Parthian vessels, the Bulge is from the bottom of the main belt
down to the turn of the bilge. A double bottom is fitted as well.

The exterior bulge was dropped from 13mm, which I had been using to 9mm,
because I read the Brits were suprised to learn the Germans chose that 9mm,
apparently they wanted to make sure splinters from the hull didn't become
projectiles. All and all, it adds depth to the entire system.
Depth being rather important to TDS systems, I'll take it.

I go into detail how I did the formulas for an inclined belt on top of the average-thickness tapered belt.

Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.

The Main Belt is complex.
Rising 1.2m above the protected deck to protect against plunging shells over the upper edge, itis slightly outsloped by 10%.
It also tapers as described below.

Outsloping
Overall it is 5.2m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 10 = A
H = A/Cos 10

tapering
Tapered belt from +2.7 to -2.5
2.7 to 1.5 200 -> 350 : 240,000+90,000
1.5 to -1.5 350 : 1,050,000
-1.5 to -2.5 350-> 200 : 200,000+ 75,000
total : 1,655,000mm3
350mm ave = 4.73

Total Belt
Belt is 5.2m high,
adjusted for thickness, it's 350mm avereged over 4.73.
So 4.73 is "A" for the purposes of the cos formula.

the "Height" simmed is H = 4.73 / Cos 10 = 4.80

Upper Belt :
The main belt tapers to nearly the upper deck, so the upper belt actually is only 1.3m high, connecting the main belt to the upper armored deck.

Deck guns : 4 twin 130mm mounts on the decks are expected to supplement both end-on and broadside fire.

Casements : 6 guns each side seperated by 35mm armored screens, the hoists shielded by 75mm.

The casements are at +3.9m above water, 75m long.
The upper belt extends past that to the base of A &B turrets
Casement guns at each end, that leaves 4 in the middle spaced 15m apart. G (15) G (15) G (15) G (15) G (15) G

TDS : (9) Bulge (mild), hull, liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (30mm), Dam control, flooding (mild)

Kalifern II, Parthian Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   36,000 t light; 39,520 t standard; 41,982 t normal; 43,953 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (610.97 ft / 597.11 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.69 ft)
   (186.22 m / 182.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.96 m)

Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 160 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1920 Model
     12 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 29,217 lbs / 13,253 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   1.38" / 35 mm   208.96 ft / 63.69 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   4.27 ft / 1.30 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.68" / 68 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   34.97 ft / 10.66 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m

- Hull Bulges:
      0.35" / 9 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   23.13 ft / 7.05 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -         0.31" / 8 mm

- Protected deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 5.12" / 130 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 3.74" / 95 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,301 shp / 27,827 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 8,100nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons

Complement:
   1,466 - 1,906

Cost:
   £9.886 million / $39.545 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5,091 tons, 12.1 %
     - Guns: 5,091 tons, 12.1 %
   Armour: 13,794 tons, 32.9 %
     - Belts: 4,168 tons, 9.9 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,345 tons, 3.2 %
     - Bulges: 118 tons, 0.3 %
     - Armament: 3,315 tons, 7.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 4,413 tons, 10.5 %
     - Conning Towers: 435 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,304 tons, 3.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,515 tons, 34.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,982 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,296 tons, 3.1 %
     - Hull below water: 544 tons
     - Bulge void weights: 100 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 142 tons
     - Above deck: 510 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44,651 lbs / 20,253 Kg = 30.1 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 18.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
     - Average freeboard:      14.24 ft / 4.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 50,885 Square feet or 4,727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 250 lbs/sq ft or 1,219 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

100t Reserve Wt

510t Fire Control
25 LR Radio

25 kite balloon
36t Additional fire suppresion
36t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower

36 Extra pumps
326 turbo electric
182 torpedo nets

Decks
+4.0 Weather deck 35mm , top upper belt
+2.7 top main belt
+1.5 Crown protective deck 95mm, top of TDS.
-1.0 Bottom edge protective deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.5 2nd Deck
-6.0 1st Deck
-8.5 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom

Kaiser Kirk · December 12, 2021, 07:13:25 PM

Writing up Kalifern II above, I realized I had not really investigated an All or Nothing version.
Since this may be the last of my 20 knot & 365mm battlewagons, it can have a low freeboard,
which means the unarmored hull is relatively small. A reasonable place to try 'all or nothing'.

Plus we are in 1920 now, so I can reasonably consider moving the secondary to all deck guns.

SO here is an AON version.

Kalifern III, Parthian Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   36,000 t light; 39,520 t standard; 41,982 t normal; 43,953 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (611.36 ft / 597.11 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.69 ft)
   (186.34 m / 182.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.96 m)

Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 162 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 227 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28,935 lbs / 13,125 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   14.34 ft / 4.37 m
   Ends:   1.38" / 35 mm   208.96 ft / 63.69 m   14.34 ft / 4.37 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      2.99" / 76 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   35.96 ft / 10.96 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m

- Hull Bulges:
      0.35" / 9 mm   388.12 ft / 118.30 m   23.13 ft / 7.05 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -         0.31" / 8 mm

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 4.92" / 125 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 4.92" / 125 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,301 shp / 27,827 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 8,100nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons

Complement:
   1,466 - 1,906

Cost:
   £9.922 million / $39.687 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5,131 tons, 12.2 %
     - Guns: 5,131 tons, 12.2 %
   Armour: 13,484 tons, 32.1 %
     - Belts: 3,626 tons, 8.6 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,545 tons, 3.7 %
     - Bulges: 118 tons, 0.3 %
     - Armament: 3,388 tons, 8.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 4,372 tons, 10.4 %
     - Conning Towers: 435 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,304 tons, 3.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,702 tons, 35.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,983 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,379 tons, 3.3 %
     - Hull below water: 544 tons
     - Bulge void weights: 180 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 142 tons
     - Above deck: 513 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     46,136 lbs / 20,927 Kg = 31.1 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 9.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 18.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Forward deck:   35.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.25 ft / 4.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 50,885 Square feet or 4,727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 251 lbs/sq ft or 1,225 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Mark III
No upper belt, all deck guns

Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.

Deck Guns
Deck guns are echloned outwards, like on Iowa,
allowing 4 to bear ahead (8 guns), or 4 on each side.
The twin 90m AA are above them.

Armor
This embraces "all or nothing", but only has 1 deck level unprotected.
The main armor deck caps the belt at 1.8m.
The belt is a uniform thickness. extending from the armor deck to
2.5m below water.

slightly outsloped by 10%.
Outsloping
Overall it is 4.3m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 10 = A
H = A/Cos 10

Which gives 4.366 or 4.37 as the height.

TDS : (9) Bulge (mild hull), liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (2x19=38mm), Dam control, flooding (mild)

180t Reserve Wt

513t Fire Control
25 LR Radio

25 kite balloon
36t Additional fire suppresion
36t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower

36 Extra pumps
326 turbo electric
182 torpedo nets

Decks
+4.2 Weather deck
+1.8 Armor Deck 125mm , top of TDS.
-0.7 3rd Deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.2 2nd Deck
-5.7 1st Deck
-8.2 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom

The Rock Doctor · December 12, 2021, 08:17:09 PM

12 AA guns seems pretty heavy for this time period.

Kaiser Kirk · December 12, 2021, 08:40:00 PM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 12, 2021, 08:17:09 PM
12 AA guns seems pretty heavy for this time period.

Easy to fix. I can make them singles.

I don't have a good feel for what would be 'right'.
Further, I expect we'll be more aircraft heavy than the real world anyhow.

Looking at HMS Nelson, she seems to have completed with 6x 120" and 8x 20mm as AA.
I don't have any 120mm AA....or 20mm. I have 90...soon 57.. and twin 15mm.

The twin 90mm have almost the same shell weight as 120mm, I'm thinking ROF and the ability to hit high flying level bombers (which they fretted about) means the 90mm is better.

Of course Nelson had 152mm decks over the magazines. Which seems excessive for the period.
Though they were a little paranoid about magazine security after Jutland, even though practices were more the issue.
The deck armor varied a bunch throughout the ship. The 95mm over the machinery seems more "real"
for the current ranges. Indeed the first ship has that as the main armor, with the 35mm upper deck.

I suppose I could replicate with a 100mm deck and +50mm in a box over the magazines.
Problem is you can't do that in one go in Springsharp.

Jefgte · December 13, 2021, 08:45:03 AM

QuoteThe Vazrya and Stombringer classes are completing in 1920, bringing my fleet to 120x 365mm guns.
Some may say that *Should* be more than enough...
they could even be right....

I thought that after having built 4 '' bigs '' in the same time, we will have a small pose of a few years ...

=> Dont forget Cruisers, DDs, TBs...
Much of your ships are obsolete, they must be replaced.