Parthian vessels 1916 onwards

Kaiser Kirk · July 16, 2022, 06:40:39 PM

Edit : Did a little more tweaking for 1924 vessel

'Opportunity Cost'...
What is the opportunity cost of boosting the ship from 30 to 31 knots ?

Apparently it means
+500 tons
3T2 -> 2T3 = more vulnerable
mount armor gets much thinner = more vulnerable while more important
belt height comes down slightly = slightly more vulnerable.
gets 6m longer (slightly bigger target)
Torpedo hits drop from 2.0 to 1.8

Overall, while I'd like 31 knots.... not seeming like it's worthwhile.

Then there's the temptation to add another 500 tons to fix the problems...

Quote
Saka, Sythian, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1924

Displacement:
   13,000 t light; 13,745 t standard; 15,180 t normal; 16,327 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 69.98 ft x (27.33 / 28.89 ft)
   (170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 21.33 m x (8.33 / 8.80 m)

Armament:
6 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 599.66lbs / 272.00kg shells, 165 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,455 lbs / 2,021 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   14.27 ft / 4.35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm   435.60 ft / 132.77 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   2.36" / 60 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.38" / 35 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 102,833 shp / 76,713 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 9,640nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,583 tons

Complement:
   683 - 888

Cost:
   £4.064 million / $16.258 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 976 tons, 6.4 %
     - Guns: 976 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 2,714 tons, 17.9 %
     - Belts: 1,056 tons, 7.0 %
     - Armament: 516 tons, 3.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,077 tons, 7.1 %
     - Conning Tower: 65 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,387 tons, 22.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,307 tons, 35.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,180 tons, 14.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 616 tons, 4.1 %
     - Hull below water: 208 tons
     - Hull void weights: 105 tons
     - Hull above water: 38 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 82 tons
     - Above deck: 183 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,495 lbs / 7,482 Kg = 32.6 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.504 / 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      21.85 ft / 6.66 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,793 Square feet or 2,396 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 671 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

Probably the final tinkering.
Resets to 1924.

This wheedles at the vessel to get a 31knot turn of speed.
This does mean that instead of 3T2 x 255 there's 2x T3 255, all forward.

Intended to be a "Light Armored Cruiser" to return the vessel to the role of defeating opposing scout cruisers and protected cruisers.

Main Gun : 255L47 Designed 1917

Secondary Gun : 120L43 designed 1913.

Anti-Aircraft Gun : 90L50 designed 1911.

Armor
A debate between extensive light armor to defeat QF weapons of their intended prey, or thicker AON armor to also allow long range engagements with peers led to the thicker armor.

Belt : 125mm , +2.75m above WL to -1.57m Below WL
rises 1.25m above protective deck
Inclined outwards 12degrees
4.25/cos(12) =4.3449 = 4.35

Armor Deck :
25mm portective fore deck
60mm Citadel & stern (proof vs 360mm splinters)

Misc Wt :
95t Const Resv

98t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
25t Hulesmeyer
10t SR Radio Dedicated AC

32t : 2 x Quad 21"
10t : 2x Gunpowder Cat On stern.
40t : 2x Scout Floatplane on stern
5t : Paravanes

13t: CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Extra Fire Suppression

168t : Torpedo Nets
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones.
25t : Extra Pumps.

Decks :
6.5 Forecastle Deck
4.0 Weather deck
2.75 Top Armored Belt
1.5 Battery Deck, Crown protective deck
-1.0 2nd deck, lower edge protective deck
-1.5 Bottom Main Belt
-3.5 1st Deck
-7.2 Engineering
-8.33 Keel, Double Bottom

Kaiser Kirk · July 17, 2022, 06:57:12 PM

A bit more tinkering with the 180mm cruiser
scraped up enough weight to thicken the deck and belt slightly.
Edit - after a little research it looks like I researched the larger shell.
so had to modify the shell count and weight

Royal Nssean X, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,496 t standard; 9,412 t normal; 10,144 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (556.83 ft / 551.18 ft) x 54.66 ft x (22.64 / 23.94 ft)
   (169.72 m / 168.00 m) x 16.66 m x (6.90 / 7.30 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 190 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,524 lbs / 1,145 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.31" / 135 mm   385.83 ft / 117.60 m   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.31" / 135 mm
   2nd:   1.38" / 35 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm   0.31" / 8 mm      0.31" / 8 mm
   5th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 73,033 shp / 54,483 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 7,980nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,649 tons

Complement:
   477 - 621

Cost:
   £2.406 million / $9.624 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 601 tons, 6.4 %
     - Guns: 601 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 1,845 tons, 19.6 %
     - Belts: 888 tons, 9.4 %
     - Armament: 199 tons, 2.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 693 tons, 7.4 %
     - Conning Towers: 64 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,441 tons, 25.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,720 tons, 28.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,412 tons, 15.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 393 tons, 4.2 %
     - Hull below water: 40 tons
     - Hull void weights: 50 tons
     - Hull above water: 33 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 124 tons
     - Above deck: 146 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,631 lbs / 3,461 Kg = 42.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.483 / 0.492
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
     - Aft deck:   50.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   10.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.70 ft / 5.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,768 Square feet or 1,837 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 448 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 1.35
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Royal Niessan X.2

Much the same as the previously posted X

Minor tweaking of hull dimensions and belt
changed from outsloped 15 to 12, with height lowered.

Endbelts dispensed with, relying just on the end protective decks to thwart splinters.

This allows slighty more armor elsewhere

MB Height : 1.7 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.2
3.2/cos(12) = 3.27148 =3.27

Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory
.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.

1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8

The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.

The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.

50t - Reserve

AD
61t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer

OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
55t - 2x 25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
51t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47

HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.

HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.

Decks
+6.6 Forecastle Deck
+4.2 Weather Deck
+1.7 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.80 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.30
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom

Kaiser Kirk · July 19, 2022, 08:35:26 AM

I decided I should "go Parthian" on the Royal Neissan design
and see what trading a little bit of speed would mean in terms of ....MORE GUNS

So...30knots but with a P and a Q mount !

Royal Niessean XII, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,555 t standard; 9,477 t normal; 10,215 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (542.56 ft / 538.06 ft) x 57.94 ft x (22.64 / 23.91 ft)
   (165.37 m / 164.00 m) x 17.66 m x (6.90 / 7.29 m)

Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      3 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,185 lbs / 1,445 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   376.64 ft / 114.80 m   11.55 ft / 3.52 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.31" / 135 mm   1.77" / 45 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   1.38" / 35 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm   0.31" / 8 mm      0.31" / 8 mm
   5th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 65,180 shp / 48,624 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 8,044nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,660 tons

Complement:
   479 - 624

Cost:
   £2.511 million / $10.043 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 804 tons, 8.5 %
     - Guns: 804 tons, 8.5 %
   Armour: 1,796 tons, 19.0 %
     - Belts: 869 tons, 9.2 %
     - Armament: 238 tons, 2.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.8 %
     - Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,178 tons, 23.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,808 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,477 tons, 15.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 414 tons, 4.4 %
     - Hull below water: 40 tons
     - Hull void weights: 50 tons
     - Hull above water: 33 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 125 tons
     - Above deck: 166 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,282 lbs / 3,756 Kg = 46.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.470 / 0.480
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.20 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 21.16 ft / 6.45 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
     - Aft deck:   50.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
     - Quarter deck:   10.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.18 ft / 5.24 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,224 Square feet or 1,879 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 484 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.

1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] P(Q) [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8

The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.

The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck at +1.7m
The belt descends to -1.7m below water, for a total height of 3.4m.

3.4m/cos(15) = 3.519 = 3.52m

The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.

50t - Reserve

AD
81t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio dedicated AC center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer

OD
45t - 2x 20+5 - Scout Float + Gunpwdr CAT
75t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
5t - Paravanes

HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.

HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.

Decks
+4.95 Weather Deck
+2.50 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
- 0.00 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-2.50
-5.-0 Engineering

TacCovert4 · July 19, 2022, 10:00:43 AM

Same gun count on a hull 4000t lighter than my Lake-class design. Belt on the Lakes is a 5mm thinner and not angled, but it's also 2 full decks where yours is about a deck and a half or so. Also the Lakes have an end belt and thicker deck armor, and a TDS, which combine to account for the 4000t. Yours also has a heavier secondary and a LOT more AA mounts in the heavier ranges. Overall, a pretty solid cruiser.

Kaiser Kirk · July 19, 2022, 11:15:52 AM

I try to tie my Belt heights to the hull I have.

Which is why I count off the decks at the bottom, using usually 2.5m as a 'deck height' - SS uses 2.44.
Then I vary how far below WL it extends based on opponent shell size.

If I have a protective Deck, I want the crown to be 1m+ above WL, and then extend the armor belt above that
to guard against descending shells going over the top and hitting the slopes of the PD.

So one of the "savings" of an armor deck is the shorter belt height, though no protective armor behind.

Yeah, TDSs are hard to fit, esp with the needed internal blister area- tends to push the belt length out.
Pretty much not bothering on smaller ships.

For 30 vs 31 knots... I'm thinking about it.
Much as I like the 135mm armor of the X.2 version.

TacCovert4 · July 19, 2022, 03:15:00 PM

Good point. I might adjust my belt height for my bigger 180mm Frigate down to 3.5m, and see how much tonnage I can put into seriously buffing the AA suite, considering how much more extensive you're getting in the AA department.

Jefgte · July 19, 2022, 03:48:47 PM

Quote...12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas...

Arrange them on the main deck.
"Good Hope" installation is not the best.

Kaiser Kirk · July 19, 2022, 06:48:10 PM

The casement 120 is an accepted tradeoff. Saves weight.
I used to have text about it in the earlier versions of the ship.

They aren't far off the water and won't be useful in heavy seas.

That's accepted as torpedoes don't run well when they broach in sea troughs in heavy seas.
So weather that renders them out of service should be the same that makes torpedo attack unlikely to work.

Plus casement guns have an advantage in actually hitting things low on the water, as they have more danger space.

The real downside is if the ship takes on water/list, those are holes for water egress.
There the Armor deck helps, as it increases the flotation reserve in the first place.

As for the AA-

I'm roughly basing it on the French 1924 Duquesne and 1925 Suffren class cruisers.
Duquesne :
eight 75 mm/50 (2.95 inch) model 1922 naval gun on single Model 1922 gun mounts. ....
The medium anti-aircraft armament was augmented with eight 37 mm/50 (1.46 inch) model 1925 guns in eight Model 1925 single mounts....
To complete the light AA armament... twelve 13,2 mm (0.5 inch) Model 1929 machine guns....These guns would be mounted in twin mountings.

Suffern :
The secondary armament on Suffren was eight 75 mm/50 Model 1924 high-angle guns in single mounts. Starting with Colbert these were replaced by eight 90 mm/50 Model 1926 high-angle guns in Model 1926 single mounts.[16] Dupleix carried the 90 mm guns in four Model 1930 twin mounts.
The light anti-aircraft armament on Suffren was eight 37 mm/50 Model 1925 guns in single mounts. ....
]Suffren received six twin 13.2 mm Hotchkiss machine guns in 1934

So I am a touch heavier in the AA, but not greatly so.
I haven't designed my 30-40mm AA yet, so the 57s are the closest.

Kaiser Kirk · July 19, 2022, 07:43:39 PM

Edit : Posted 2 ships in this reply. The first was just the 12 gun modified. Then I removed that and started from the optimised X,2 hull.
This version has slightly better armor.

Part of the fun of comments is they cause me to reassess my choices.

So what IS the tradeoff for casements?
As mentioned, they were a deliberate choice on these vessels.

With the PQ mounts, they also keep the deck clear for firing arcs.
Only the corners are really "available" for secondary guns.

So, if I stack 120 with superimposed 90mm at the corners, that should..work?
But I don't think there's room for 4 sets of 3 x T1 120 at the corners
Just a hunch.

So I'd have to downgrade to 8 mounts, giving a 4 x 120 broadside instead of 6 x 120.
Not horrid, but not an improvement.

Plus having to move the 90mm "up" means I displace the 57mm from there.

~~So I drop to twin 57mm fore / aft to take out fast moving aircraft coming the length of the ship, or both can engage on the broadside.~~

on this second, I put the 57s in the corners also, just double superimposed. This gives 4 in each direction.

Different.
I don't think the "gain" of heavy weather 120mm is really worth it,
as said, torpedoes are less of a threat then, and destroyers would be struggling to make speed anyhow.

Quote
Royal Nssean XII, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,537 t standard; 9,462 t normal; 10,202 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (553.48 ft / 547.90 ft) x 57.41 ft x (22.64 / 23.91 ft)
   (168.70 m / 167.00 m) x 17.50 m x (6.90 / 7.29 m)

Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      3 raised mounts
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,071 lbs / 1,393 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   367.09 ft / 111.89 m   10.40 ft / 3.17 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.12" / 130 mm
   2nd:   1.38" / 35 mm   0.98" / 25 mm        -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm   0.31" / 8 mm      0.31" / 8 mm
   5th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 64,281 shp / 47,954 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 8,060nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons

Complement:
   479 - 623

Cost:
   £2.461 million / $9.843 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 759 tons, 8.0 %
     - Guns: 759 tons, 8.0 %
   Armour: 1,768 tons, 18.7 %
     - Belts: 769 tons, 8.1 %
     - Armament: 236 tons, 2.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 713 tons, 7.5 %
     - Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,148 tons, 22.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,882 tons, 30.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,462 tons, 15.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 443 tons, 4.7 %
     - Hull below water: 40 tons
     - Hull void weights: 60 tons
     - Hull above water: 33 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 149 tons
     - Above deck: 161 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,458 lbs / 3,837 Kg = 47.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.465 / 0.475
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Aft deck:   47.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   13.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.54 ft / 5.35 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,320 Square feet or 1,888 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 483 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 1.39
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Royal Niessan X.2

Much the same as the previously posted X

Minor tweaking of hull dimensions and belt
changed from outsloped 15 to 12, with height lowered.

Endbelts dispensed with, relying just on the end protective decks to thwart splinters.

This allows slighty more armor elsewhere

MB Height : 1.6 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.
3.21cos(12) = 3.169 =3.17

Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory
.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.

1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8

The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.

The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.

65t - Reserve

AD
61t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer

OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t on stern
55t - 2x 20+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
76t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47

HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.

HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.

Decks
+6.5 Forecastle Deck
+4.1 Weather Deck
+1.6 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-1.00 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.50
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom

Kaiser Kirk · October 25, 2022, 11:14:40 PM

Inspired by Snip,
I rummaged through my designs and made an excel sheet of the classes I'd like to build, their build times, and how many I'd like to build at once.
Then I expanded it over 5 years.

On the 'Desired NEW Build' list 1924-1929
2 'Imulhuru' Battleships 45k
2 'Stormbreaker' fast Battleships 38k
3 'Dahae' heavy armored cruiser (battlecruiser) 22k
4 Zemaka heavy armored cruiser 18.5k
4 Roc Carriers 16k
6 Avio Aristabara Flight Deck Cruisers 13.5k
4 Saka Light Armored Cruisers 12k
12 Moulek IIC Cruisers 6k
20 Artesmia II Frigates 3k
16 Babr Ocean Destroyers
32 Vahkar Fleet Destroyers
6 Gatekeeper Coast Defense Cruiser
16 Mira Pa Coast Defense Corvette
20 SS-750t
160 MTB-D

Aux
2 Hakma FSV
2 Avio Piarika Seaplane Tender
10 Deniz Ghoorbagheh Torpedo Tender
3 Deniz Sayadar Nettender
40 Patrol Sloops
30 Gnat-A Coastal Gunboats
30 Gnat-B Coastal Subchasers
30 Gnat-C Coastal Minesweepers

Only one tiny problem :
...that build list takes like 86 BP / HY....which is
quite a lot more than I have...

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

snip · October 25, 2022, 11:24:17 PM

Thats, a lot of toys. Perhaps looking at a plan from a construction capacity perspective would yield a more tunable result.

Kaiser Kirk · October 26, 2022, 12:04:36 AM

Quote from: snip on October 25, 2022, 11:24:17 PM
Thats, a lot of toys. Perhaps looking at a plan from a construction capacity perspective would yield a more tunable result.

What, limits ?!?!

The Rock Doctor · October 26, 2022, 05:34:35 AM

I can't believe we don't have enough BP to just do what we want. What is up with that?

Kaiser Kirk · October 26, 2022, 10:42:54 AM

Sadly it means I can't have all the shiny toys I want :(

The Rock Doctor · October 27, 2022, 06:06:40 PM

I'm sad too.