Parthian vessels 1916 onwards

Kaiser Kirk · February 21, 2022, 02:49:24 PM

Cruiser Musing.

My detour to build 'sentry' cruisers and refit the old scout cruisers has provided 5+2 ships for that role.

I should return to considering light cruisers.
The Byzantine fielding of 191mm guns, and other nations of 180mm has meant my old 165mm QF seems underpowered.
Which is really ironic as pregame I thought I was fielding fewer, but very powerful cruisers.

So I have been rearming with 180L43. Compared to Hawkins these are ~80% of the mass before armor.
I am keeping them to single mount & hoist and limiting armor to keep the rotating weight down so they can track smaller targets fairly well.
So I am not fitting a separate secondary, rather accepting that in a gun battle, I may loose single guns.

Trying to assess where the Global Cruiser trendlines are, I made a little list.

First are the most recent completed and 'checkable' vessels of the various major navies.
Then 4 3 variants on a theme I am considering - named after ancient horse breeds from the Persian area.
Then my current cruisers.

From that look,
....I haven't resolved anything.
The Bahktiari at 29knots is slightly slow, but competitive, with excellent armor.
The Moulek at 30knots is right on speed, well armored and decently gunned.
The Mawari also 30knots has 1 more broadside gun, too many AA guns, and the weakest armor of the three.
~~The Darashouri has the additional broadside gun, the weakest armor, but the best speed at 31knots.~~
Edit : The Darashouri was also a 1923 engine year, so not eligible.

My answer keeps changing between the ~~four~~ three choices.
I am fine with being a knot slower, but somewhat tougher, and the Bahktiari would match decently against the Byzantines.
But the tradeoffs to get to the Moulek and 30knots are not bad.
The Mwari essentially trades 1 broadside gun for a significant amount of protective deck. Probably not worth it
I much prefer the 40mm or 45mm decks, both to back the belt armor, and to stop splinters from old Byzantine ACs with 9-10" guns at range.

Something to ponder....

Cruiser Conundrum

Cruisers between 3-6000 tons take 3 HY

So in 1921, the last completions were laid down in 1919.

However, it would take a couple years for the Naval Press / Intellegence to get an idea of 'real' numbers

So I expect the Parthians have pretty good information on Cruisers built 1917 or earlier, and guesses for 1919 classes.

						Broadside
	Class	Date	LD	Speed	Range	Main gun	Secondary	AA	Other	Belt	Deck

Azteca	Atlatl	1917	7000	31	7900	8x 180L50	4x 100mm	2x70		100	30
Byzantine	C5	1913	5300	27	6500	6 x 191L45	6x 120mm	2x76	8x TT	90	35
Byzantine	C6	1918	5500-6000	28-29	6500	6-8 x 191L45	6-8x 120mm	2-4x76	8-16x TT	100	35	Completed 1919-1920
Japan	Furutaka	1915	3400	30	7000	6x 150L45	6x 50mm		12 x TT	25	25
Japan	Kitakami	1917	3100	30	7000	6x 150L45	6x 50mm		24x TT	25	25
Rome	Agincourt	1915	6000	31	7000	10x 140L55		1x 100	6x TT	35	35
Rome	Killian DeCampo	1915	9000	30	7000	5x 180L50	2x 100mm	2x 45		60	60
Wilno	Magdala	1916	5200	30	10000	10x 130L45		2x 50		80	25
Wilno	Bug II	1918	5200	30	10000	10x 130L45		2x 50		80	25	Completed 1919-1920, similar to Magdala


	Parthian 1921 Cruiser variants
	Bahktiari	1921	6000	29	10600	6x 180L43		6x 90	12x TT	110	45
	Moulek	1921	6000	30	10000	6x 180L43		6x 90	12x TT	85	45
	Mawari	1921	6000	30	10600	7x 180L43		8x 90	12x TT	75	35




	Parthian existing larger cruisers
2	PC	1900 R20	6000	28	8300	4x 180L43		4x 90	12x TT	115	50
2	PC series I	1902 R20	6000	29	7900	7x 180L43		4x 90	12x TT	100	40
2	PC series II	1904	6000	24	7600	7x 165L45	4x 60		8x TT / 160M	90	25
0	Series II refurb 1921	1904 R21	6000	28	10600	7x 180L43		4x 90	12x TT / 160M	110	55
2	PC series III	1906	6000	27	7600	7x 165L45	4x 60		8x TT / 160M	90	25
1	Varyu	1911	7500	30	12000	6x 180L45		4x90	4x TT	90	30
1	Vata	1911	7500	30	12000	7x 165L45		4x90	4x TT	90	30
1	Saka	1911	6000	28	14000	6x 180L45		4x90	6x TT	120	30
1	Massagatea	1911	6000	28	14000	7x 165L45		4x90	6x TT	120	30
8	Maelstrom	1913	5000	29	8800	6x 165L45		4x90	4x TT	100	30
4	Ranger	1915	5000	29	3500	6x 165L43		4x 90	4x TT	110	35
2+2	Bakr -Sentry Frigate	1919	4500	27	6700	6x 165L43		4x 90	6x TT	100	25

	Subtotal 26+2

	Others
2	Mus-Sag Torpedoboat carriers
12	Artesmia sailing raider frigates
2	SC 2 Sythian Sentry Frigate
1	SC 5 Samaritan Sentry Frigate
3	DDL Rudaba Destroyer leader
2	Royal Road courier cruiser

	Subtotal 22

Kaiser Kirk · February 21, 2022, 05:38:58 PM

After mulling things over, the ability to face the Byzantine C6, which is presumed to be an upgrade on the C5
is of importance. As my 180 vs his 191 is a little smaller, I need a little extra armor to offset his advantage.

Speedwise, 29knots should match up with the C6.
That puts me just 1 knot behind the others - and perhaps 1 or 2 behind the 1919 ships.
But one thing the Parthians have noticed is even when you build the very fastest ship, it does not
stay that way for long.
However, those faster seem lighter armed or armored, and so if they catch me...they may not like that result.

So.. the 'Bahktiari' seems the best choice for now.

The "Moulek2" is also posted for comparison, and because I might suddenly change my mind.

On naming :

These cruiser classes are is named after the ancient horse breed of the Persian world.
The 'the Caspian Horse', a little horse from Northern Iran, a local name being 'Moulek' and Pouseki.
. These were riding and cart horses from the time of Darius the Great onwards.

Akhale-Teke, Iomund, Goklan, and Nokhorli are also ancient horses breeds likely descended from the Caspians.

The Marwari and Kathiawari are Indian breeds related to the Moulek.

The Royal Nisean is the warhorse of Cyrus the Great, and was actively sought by both the Greeks and Chinese. This breed may have been that which allowed the transition from Chariot horses, to horses bearing armored warriors. The Chinese called the breed 'Tien Ma' or Heavenly Horse.
In history the breed went extinct in 1204, in Navalism, it's status as favored mount of Royals kept it alive.

The Asil is the purest remaining breed.
The Bakhtiari is a horse of the arid plataue, long and rangey.
The Darashouri is a mix of the Niessan and Arabian horses. They are found mainly in Fars.
The Tchenarian are an ancient breed, mixing the steppe and arabians.
The Kurd horse is native to the mountainous areas.

Quote
Bahktiari, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   6,000 t light; 6,347 t standard; 7,405 t normal; 8,252 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.85 ft x (20.51 / 22.23 ft)
   (159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.50 m x (6.25 / 6.77 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 350 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,642 lbs / 745 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.33" / 110 mm   335.89 ft / 102.38 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   0.24" / 6 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 1.77" / 45 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.33" / 110 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 49,328 shp / 36,799 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 10,600nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,905 tons

Complement:
   398 - 518

Cost:
   £1.498 million / $5.993 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 394 tons, 5.3 %
     - Guns: 394 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 1,431 tons, 19.3 %
     - Belts: 681 tons, 9.2 %
     - Armament: 146 tons, 2.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 569 tons, 7.7 %
     - Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,699 tons, 22.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,193 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,405 tons, 19.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 282 tons, 3.8 %
     - Hull below water: 40 tons
     - Hull void weights: 80 tons
     - Hull above water: 31 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 41 tons
     - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,950 lbs / 3,606 Kg = 44.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.481 / 0.494
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Forward deck:   27.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Aft deck:   38.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.24 ft / 5.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,212 Square feet or 1,599 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 401 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 1.36
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The 1/2 and 3/4 mounts are forward of the break,
the 5/6 mounts aft. The torpedo tubes are between the 5/6 and the break

The 90mm AA are mounted high with good all-round arcs.

Misc. Weight :
55t: Construction Resv

25t : LR Radio
40t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)

36t : 4T3 21" TT
5t : Paravanes

6t : CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Enhanced Fire Ext.

25t: Enhanced Pumps
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones

Decks :

+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+2.00 : top armor belt
+1.50 : Crown of protective deck
-1.00 : 1st deck, lower edge protective deck.
-1.5 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.38 : Keel, double bottom

And now the Moulek

Quote
Moulek, Pouseki, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   6,000 t light; 6,347 t standard; 7,346 t normal; 8,145 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.03 ft x (20.51 / 22.15 ft)
   (159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.25 m x (6.25 / 6.75 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 375 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,642 lbs / 745 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   356.56 ft / 108.68 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.56" / 65 mm   1.77" / 45 mm      1.77" / 45 mm
   2nd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 56,227 shp / 41,945 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,024nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,798 tons

Complement:
   396 - 515

Cost:
   £1.583 million / $6.332 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 394 tons, 5.4 %
     - Guns: 394 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 1,300 tons, 17.7 %
     - Belts: 586 tons, 8.0 %
     - Armament: 135 tons, 1.8 %
     - Armour Deck: 551 tons, 7.5 %
     - Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,936 tons, 26.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,162 tons, 29.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,347 tons, 18.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 207 tons, 2.8 %
     - Hull below water: 15 tons
     - Hull void weights: 55 tons
     - Hull above water: 6 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 41 tons
     - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,538 lbs / 2,965 Kg = 36.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.485 / 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Forward deck:   23.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
     - Aft deck:   46.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   11.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      16.91 ft / 5.16 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,994 Square feet or 1,579 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 400 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

The Moulek and Pouseki are local names for the Caspian Horse,
an ancient horse breed depicted from the time of Darius.

The 1/2 and 3/4 mounts are forward of the break,
the 5/6 mounts aft. The torpedoe tubes are between the 5/6 and the break

The rotating weight for the main battery is 59.875 tons each.
This is betwen the 45 and 70t in the Ship Design guidelines.
Likewise the 85kg shell is betwen the 60 and 95kg marks for handloading.

The 90mm AA are mounted high.

Misc. Weight :
35t: Construction Resv

25t : LR Radio
40t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)

36t : 4T3 21" TT
5t : Paravanes

6t : CO2 Compressor AC
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones

Decks :

+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+2.00 : top armor belt
+1.50 : Crown of protective deck
-1.00 : 1st deck, lower edge protective deck.
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.32 : Keel, double bottom

Jefgte · February 21, 2022, 07:11:21 PM

Byzantium does not plan to change the standard armament of these cruisers: 6x191 + 6(8)x120.
But plans squadron cruisers, 29kts and colonial cruisers,27kts.
Bahktiari and Moulek have 6 gun broadsides, identical to C5, C6 & C7, C8 projects.

Kaiser Kirk · February 22, 2022, 10:24:03 PM

Tinkering around, I wanted to see what a 165mm version, with the high speed would look like.

This matches the little Japanese cruisers for speed, and has comparable armament and armor to the Roman and Wilno ships.
There may be sufficient speed advantage to close on the Byzantine vessels, but with them having greater guns AND armor...
There will be an extended period where they can seriously harm me, and I can not hope to do the same.

Worse, the twin 165mm actually weighs 95tons, making it more than a single 180L43 while difficult to traverse unassisted,
and of less use in night time closing engagements.

So, while interesting to explore,
not a winning design.

Quote
Tchenarian, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   6,000 t light; 6,302 t standard; 7,117 t normal; 7,768 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (524.63 ft / 518.37 ft) x 50.85 ft x (19.69 / 21.01 ft)
   (159.91 m / 158.00 m) x 15.50 m x (6.00 / 6.40 m)

Armament:
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,245 lbs / 565 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   388.78 ft / 118.50 m   11.65 ft / 3.55 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

- Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.56" / 65 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      1.57" / 40 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.24" / 6 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 2.95" / 75 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 62,803 shp / 46,851 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 8,280nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,467 tons

Complement:
   386 - 503

Cost:
   £1.578 million / $6.313 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 301 tons, 4.2 %
     - Guns: 301 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 1,138 tons, 16.0 %
     - Belts: 533 tons, 7.5 %
     - Armament: 138 tons, 1.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 444 tons, 6.2 %
     - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,163 tons, 30.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,146 tons, 30.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,116 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 253 tons, 3.6 %
     - Hull below water: 25 tons
     - Hull void weights: 30 tons
     - Hull above water: 31 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 86 tons
     - Above deck: 81 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,494 lbs / 2,492 Kg = 40.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.491
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 20.18 ft / 6.15 m
     - Aft deck:   45.00 %, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
     - Quarter deck:   5.00 %, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.13 ft / 5.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,251 Square feet or 1,603 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.87
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Misc Wieght
30t - Const Reserve

25t - LR Radio
31t - FC
25t - Searchlight tower

36t - 4T3 21" TT
50t - 2x Kite Balloon

6t - CO2 Air compressor
25t - enhanced Fire suppression

25t - Extra Pumps.

Decks

+6.15 Forecastle
+3.65 Weather Deck
+2.2 Top main belt
+1.15 Protective Deck Crown
- 1.35 Lower Edge Protective Deck
-1.35 Bottom main belt
-5.2 Engineering

Kaiser Kirk · February 22, 2022, 10:32:48 PM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on February 21, 2022, 02:19:16 PM
My understanding from the Refurb rules is that you can remove or replace armor but not add to it.

That is correct

QuoteNew armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defense (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added. Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased).

I can not make it thicker no.
You can't really inject extra steel to make it thicker. I suppose one could try, might be funny to watch.
I can add an additional layer.
That is what I mean by 'laminate', I am placing a new deck directly on top of the old deck.
That is not as strong as a single deck layer, which I why I include that specification. I get less bang for the buck.

This is essentially what the Brits did post Jutland.
Rather than tearing up and replacing the old decks with completely new ones, they added armor plate to the old ones.

Kaiser Kirk · March 06, 2022, 02:32:20 PM

1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft. Early Air-Launched torpedoes. Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs limited to single aircraft.

In 1921.0 the Parthians completed research on this technology.
The 'allowed' model appears to be that of the first version of HMS Furious.

https://naval-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/hms-furious-1918-aircraft-carrier-2.png

I think the 'operating' meaning for "separate landing and taking-off decks" is HMS Furious allowed planes to wheel around the superstructure, so the landing and take off areas were connected, but critically you could not use the take off section as additional landing area.

Kaiser Kirk · March 06, 2022, 02:37:29 PM

Mus-Sag 1918 tech experimental carrier

I am thinking the most appropriate ships for a conversion is the Mus-Sag Torpedo-boat carriers which I simply refurbished..... or one of the ones converted to a Seaplane Carrier.

As before their casement guns means nothing on the centerline, and they already have large spaces for workshops.

I am thinking that the seaplane carriers are useful as is, and it would be more welcomed to convert
one of the two remaining torpedo-boat carriers. The last can still be used to ferry MTBs around, or for solo raids.

Ironically, when I had 6 of the things, they could field 48 TBs and have a shot of saturating defenses. Now with 16...or 8, they are less useful even with the newer MTBs.

For the Mus-Sag Torpedo-boat conversion

Design Description
A hanger Aft, with a landing deck on top.
Two Superstructure islands, Port & Starboard, connected by a flying bridge.
This forms an "H" with a tunnel between them.
In the tunnel between, is the elevator, and is used for both landing and taking off aircraft.
Forward a cantilevered structure extends forward, ~2 planes wide, with a gunpowder catapult as reserve and 'bumper' at both sides to keep the planes wheels from running off.

Airgroup
Waterplane : 1696 / 65 = 30.7 max air group

I want this to be a 'Flight Deck Cruiser'
So max Air Group = 30.7 / 2 = 15.35 = 15

Tonnage per plane is 80 * 1.5 (conversion) = 120 / plane
* 15 planes = 1800 tons

Theoretically Parthia likes to use groups of 4- a Zorastorian thing – so I will go with 3 groups of 4 and 3 spares.
Or 15.

Old Tonnage :

Old Engines : 2196
Old Bunker : 1467
Old hull : 2267

Hanger :
I am paying to redo the freeboard, so the 'hull weight' become relevant.
The default Freeboard is 4.55 m. The as-built is 5.05. I will use 5.05 as base.
Stern and aft Hull : +5m

I will retain the raised bow as the forward end of the flight deck.
It prevents bow-on deck gun fire, but these ships were casemented, so that was irrelevant.
The ships are a lot shorter than HMS Furious and may need that length.
Works out to about 70m. Looking at HMS Campania she started at 38.6m and then was lengthend to 74m
so this puts it "in the ballpark"

The end result is very unstable, so I will add 1m bulges on each side.
Upper belt was 5.05 to 2.61, then Main belt was 2.60 to -0.4.
So bulges will be 13mm from -0.4 to 6m keel

New Hull : 3355

Guns :
The 180L40s get replaced with 180L43s. The casement armor gets replaced and upgraded.
The 60mm get removed, 4 pairs of the new 57L60 are placed at the superstructure corners.
Since the ship will have planes to go shoot down zeppelins or high bombers, the 90AA is not seen
as needed. The faster firing 57L60 is expected to be much more handy against attacking planes.
1 quad 15L70 is placed on top of each tower of the H.

Guns & Mounts : 217
Armor : 97
Mag : 181

Engines :
New turbo-electric oil fired turbines are installed : 1253tons

Bunker : New Bunker : 1457

Miscellaneous Weight
100t Construction Reserve

AD
100t "H" superstructure
25t – LR radio
10t – additional SR dedicated radio
25t – Hulesmeyer
25t - Searchlights (NF)
22t - FC

OD
900tons airgroup
25t – Gunpowder Catapult
50t - Elevator
25t Additional Fire Suppression

HAW
900tons airgroup
8t CO2 AC
25t Additional Fire Suppression
5t Paravanes

HBW :
140tons Torpedo net
25tons Extra Pumps
313 tons Turbo-electric generators

Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).

A) Original Cost : 7.494 * 0.20 = $1.4988
B) Aircraft are armament , so 1800 AC + 217 guns + 1253 machinery = 3270 = 3.27 BP, $ 6.54
C) 97 + Non-AC Functional Misc Wt : 823 = 920 = 0.92 BP, $ 0.92
D) 3355 / 5000 = $0.671
E) Fuel 1457, ammo 181, Non-Functional Misc Wt 100, total : 1738t / 2000 = $0.869

Total : 4.19 BP, $10.4988

Ok that's very expensive $$ for what I get.
But I really want to field an 'Experimental' carrier before I go to 'real carriers'.
And for 4.2 BP, I can't build anything useful. The $ part is more than I like, but I can afford it.

I could save a lot by cutting down the Airgroup, as I suspect 15 is a bit much for that ship, even at 12 + 3 spares, but from a storyline aspect I'd rather have the "experience" of trying to operate a larger air group than smaller.

Quote
Mus-sag, Parthian Experimental Airplane Carrier laid down 1894 (Engine 1923)

Displacement:
   8,533 t light; 8,909 t standard; 9,718 t normal; 10,365 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (464.54 ft / 459.32 ft) x 52.49 ft (Bulges 59.06 ft) x (19.69 / 20.93 ft)
   (141.59 m / 140.00 m) x 16.00 m (Bulges 18.00 m) x (6.00 / 6.38 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides amidships
      2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,553 lbs / 704 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   305.12 ft / 93.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   154.17 ft / 46.99 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   301.84 ft / 92.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

- Hull Bulges:
      0.51" / 13 mm   305.12 ft / 93.00 m   18.37 ft / 5.60 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.38" / 35 mm
   2nd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
   Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 37,500 shp / 27,975 Kw = 25.02 kts
   Range 6,800nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,457 tons

Complement:
   489 - 636

Cost:
   £0.544 million / $2.176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 216 tons, 2.2 %
     - Guns: 216 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 1,085 tons, 11.2 %
     - Belts: 539 tons, 5.5 %
     - Bulges: 106 tons, 1.1 %
     - Armament: 99 tons, 1.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 322 tons, 3.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 19 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,253 tons, 12.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,255 tons, 33.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,185 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,723 tons, 28.0 %
     - Hull below water: 478 tons
     - Bulge void weights: 100 tons
     - Hull above water: 938 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 1,000 tons
     - Above deck: 207 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,492 lbs / 8,388 Kg = 103.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.639
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      26.37 ft / 8.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,251 Square feet or 1,696 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.84
      - Longitudinal: 4.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

The Rock Doctor · March 06, 2022, 05:25:19 PM

From my perspective it's actually a fair number of aircraft for her size.

Pricey, as you say, but not a bad outcome. Be curious to see if the 180mm guns become doctrine or not.

Kaiser Kirk · March 06, 2022, 05:52:32 PM

For some reason I think 10-12 would be more reasonable.
Probably because I was looking at HMS Vindictive, which had a cruiser hull
I considered rebuilding one of my Saka class Cruisers instead, but I did not want to sacrifice it for an experimental platform.

The Mus-sags are a weird class.
I actually really like them, for when they were built they would be a substantial tactical problem.

Now they are proving a nice experimental platform for their final days.

They are a little deceptive, because while they are big cruisers, they had a weird hull form.
Instead of being long, skinny and V hull form,

I wanted to provide lots of topside handling room for the torpedo boats, so I made them broad and beamy with a fairly shallow draft and a 0.637 BD.
So they actually have an usually high waterplane area for their tonnage.
While HMS Vindictive as on a Hawkins hull...a conventional cruiser I bet it had a much smaller BC.

As for the 180L43s, the original had the 180L40s, so that's just the most recent version.
I expect my early carriers will be 'Flight deck cruisers' focusing on scouting and contesting air superiority with small airgroups,
and will have the 180 as the main gun.

The Rock Doctor · March 06, 2022, 06:15:46 PM

That's a solid approach, I think. I have some difficulty imagining anybody building down big purpose-built attack carriers for a while yet.

Desertfox · March 06, 2022, 10:59:12 PM

*slowly puts away Zuikaku plans*

Jefgte · March 07, 2022, 12:58:58 AM

Hosho is coming soon.

Kaiser Kirk · March 07, 2022, 08:48:36 AM

I'm rather tickled by the OTL flight deck cruiser proposals, and am thinking of trying to make cruiser squadrons with one ship built as a hybrid.
The ~12000 tons 'light armored cruiser' hull is something I'm eyeing for that role, but I am also looking at 8000tonners.
Tack on a couple near the battle line and it's lots of little platforms for the first batch, focusing on fighters and scouts. The multiple decks
should actually help launch rates.

One they learn flight deck ops and handling (i.e. better mid-20s tech) and plane ranges /payloads improve, then I will start eyeing actual carriers.
Then I have an unhealthy love of the two-flight deck look of Courageous/Furious/Glorious/Akagi/Kaga....so I'm going to have a batch of those as strike carriers.

The Rock Doctor · March 07, 2022, 11:06:43 AM

I have a sort of horrified fascination with those types and had thought I should strive to build the ugliest carrier possible based on that, but I'm always re-thinking my approaches.

Kaiser Kirk · March 07, 2022, 11:18:01 AM

Oh I find the dual flight deck carriers the pretty ones.
Also a potentially elegant solution to continuous operations before they had the entire
and conceptually capable of a higher take off rate for emergency surge back in the pre-radar foe detection days.
...granted it generally wasn't used because of various issues...but

Compare it to a 'modern' with the hurricane bow and angled decks jutting out at odd angles, with the angular superstructure...bleh