Aztec Ship Designs 1918-1920

[The Rock Doctor]

There's a temptation to build up to the limit, whatever the limit is, where a ship is concerned. 

Now that I'm over the "I NEED A GOOD SCREEN" freak-out phase where I valued numbers over size, I'm more open to larger destroyers than I was.  Though the current tranche are more about filling specialty roles or indulging dumb ideas rather than producing a balanced screening unit on 1,500 tonnes.

Tac, have you got access to quad torpedo carriages yet?  I think we're all stuck at triples right now.

[TacCovert4]

Quads are coming soon, so I'm preparing for it. 

[Desertfox]

There's a temptation to build up to the limit, whatever the limit is, where a ship is concerned. 

Which is why I hate naval treaties that have size limits for individual ships but no overall tonnage limits. With destroyer rules at least there are other reasons for building smaller DDs, Japan for one will be continuing with a line of sub 500t coastal destroyers for secondary colonial duties (and ASW), while the big 1,500t ones are purely focused on ASuW and taking on more cruiser roles.

[The Rock Doctor]

Quads are coming soon, so I'm preparing for it.

I went straight to "Quad five-inchers on a destroyer, eh?"

[Desertfox]

Someone's gotta try it!

[TacCovert4]

1920 will be an interesting year, and after a cruiser-building hiatus in 1919, there's already a plan to build some fleet-screen corvettes to bolster the existing 5 eagle class.  However, there are options for a potential new 'frigate' cruiser.  Currently the 3 Weapon class cruisers are the primary high seas frigates of the Royal Navy, and there is potential to lay down 2-3 more frigates in 1920.

Utilizing an existing twin 210mm/45 gun, one design goes to a slightly larger frame than the weapon class, with a heavier main and more secondary guns in exchange for the 3000t growth in weight.  A real, if shallow, torpedo defense system is also present.

Renown, Aztec Razee laid down 1920

Displacement:
   12,000 t light; 12,496 t standard; 13,700 t normal; 14,664 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (654.49 ft / 646.33 ft) x 65.62 ft x (20.94 / 22.09 ft)
   (199.49 m / 197.00 m) x 20.00 m  x (6.38 / 6.73 m)

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm 45.0 cal guns - 284.98lbs / 129.26kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 3.94" / 100 mm 50.0 cal guns - 32.30lbs / 14.65kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.08lbs / 5.03kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      16 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2,864 lbs / 1,299 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.26" / 32 mm     88.58 ft / 27.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     65.62 ft / 20.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.10" / 28 mm   492.13 ft / 150.00 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 55.77 ft / 17.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.06" / 27 mm            -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm  Quarter deck: 1.26" / 32 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.23" / 82 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 94,887 shp / 70,786 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,168 tons

Complement:
   633 - 823

Cost:
   £2.671 million / $10.686 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 739 tons, 5.4 %
      - Guns: 739 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 3,157 tons, 23.0 %
      - Belts: 1,344 tons, 9.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 395 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 404 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 973 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,318 tons, 24.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,632 tons, 33.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,701 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 154 tons, 1.1 %
      - Hull above water: 40 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 24 tons
      - Above deck: 90 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,761 lbs / 7,149 Kg = 55.8 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.85 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.43 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Aft deck:   39.14 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.43 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.14 ft / 5.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,322 Square feet or 2,724 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 556 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


80t - 1918 FC
25t - NF Devices
25t - LR Radio

24t - 2 x 3 x 21in HW TT on sides

[TacCovert4]

The second option is a 1200t expansion to the previous Weapon class.  Covered in the expansion are 4 more secondary guns to give it a better anti-destroyer and torpedo boat defense, a move to the new standard of AA guns for large ships an increase in deck armor, and a half knot increase in speed. 

Atlatl, Aztec Frigate laid down 1920

Displacement:
   10,200 t light; 10,607 t standard; 11,699 t normal; 12,573 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (590.50 ft / 586.45 ft) x 68.90 ft x (18.77 / 19.86 ft)
   (179.98 m / 178.75 m) x 21.00 m  x (5.72 / 6.05 m)

Armament:
      8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 50.0 cal guns - 188.38lbs / 85.45kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 3.94" / 100 mm 50.0 cal guns - 32.30lbs / 14.65kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.08lbs / 5.03kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      16 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 1,962 lbs / 890 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm     65.62 ft / 20.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     61.52 ft / 18.75 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 120 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   1.06" / 27 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm  Quarter deck: 1.26" / 32 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.15" / 80 mm, Aft 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 91,945 shp / 68,591 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,966 tons

Complement:
   562 - 731

Cost:
   £2.339 million / $9.356 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 433 tons, 3.7 %
      - Guns: 433 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 2,182 tons, 18.7 %
      - Belts: 1,263 tons, 10.8 %
      - Armament: 118 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 732 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Towers: 70 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,215 tons, 27.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,193 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,499 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 177 tons, 1.5 %
      - Hull above water: 53 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 54 tons
      - Above deck: 70 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,797 lbs / 6,258 Kg = 77.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.22 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      20.39 ft / 6.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 190.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,936 Square feet or 2,595 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 522 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



25t - Long Range Radio
43t - Fire Control (1918)
25t - Night Listening Devices (1912)
60t - Electric T&E for main battery
24t - 2x3x21in HW TT on Sides

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd lean toward the first, with perhaps a bit more speed at the expense of some secondaries.   This is mainly me being biased against big mount-and-hoist guns in the 180 to 190mm range, though, so if you don't share that bias...

[Kaiser Kirk]

I have variations on the same theme, I just have poured to much into Land/Air/Dep to build them.

I'm fine with big M&H guns. I dislike your twin mounted version.

In the 160-195mm range with [mounts[/u] you see historical comments that the guns were a bit unwieldy, and rate of fire would slow some in longer combats due to weight, but the various nations continued to design follow up classes with guns in that range - a good hint they found the compromises worth it.

The Brits addressed this in the Hawkins class 7.5" with adding power assist, and a M&H.

So what I don't like  is the twin aspect.
The numbers under Ship Design Guidelines/Best Design Practices / Practical Notes on Turrets vs. Mounts. try to summarize
what I've noted from various author's comments over the years.

You now have twin 180/50s on a single slide in a gunhouse with a 100mm front and 40mm sides.
That's quite heavy.  SS estimates 126t rotating per mount.

The Omaha class twin 150/53 mounts were single slide in a 50mm front/25 sides (as I recall) and was criticized as being
cramped, and very slow to train....at 77tons.

It's part of the reason my cruisers have been retaining single 165mm M&H, instead of twins/2-gun - it keeps the rotating weight in the reasonable range for it to be handy.

[TacCovert4]

The weight issue is why I have dedicated 15t per mount to electric traverse and elevation.   I recognize the issues with the mounts, so I have taken measures to address the issue

[TacCovert4]

I went back and modded the 180mm Frigate design some more.  Basically I felt I was putting too much weight on for not enough benefit.  This one takes her up to the 10,000t range, but adds a half knot of speed, no additional range, just a single additional 100mm gun per broadside and a more modest AA update.  Armor is improved modestly as well.

Atlatl, Aztec Frigate laid down 1920

Displacement:
   9,956 t light; 10,346 t standard; 11,412 t normal; 12,266 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (627.26 ft / 623.36 ft) x 62.47 ft x (19.00 / 20.11 ft)
   (191.19 m / 190.00 m) x 19.04 m  x (5.79 / 6.13 m)

Armament:
      8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 50.0 cal guns - 188.38lbs / 85.45kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 3.94" / 100 mm 50.0 cal guns - 32.30lbs / 14.65kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.08lbs / 5.03kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      16 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 1,875 lbs / 851 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.85" / 47 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1.06" / 27 mm  Quarter deck: 1.26" / 32 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 2.76" / 70 mm, Aft 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 85,968 shp / 64,132 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 7,900nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,919 tons

Complement:
   551 - 717

Cost:
   £2.239 million / $8.954 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 428 tons, 3.8 %
      - Guns: 428 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 2,434 tons, 21.3 %
      - Belts: 1,344 tons, 11.8 %
      - Armament: 130 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 913 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Towers: 47 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,006 tons, 26.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,911 tons, 34.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,457 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 176 tons, 1.5 %
      - Hull above water: 62 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 44 tons
      - Above deck: 70 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,995 lbs / 5,894 Kg = 73.0 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.98 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  22.15 ft / 6.75 m,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.41 ft / 5.61 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,922 Square feet or 2,501 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 496 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



25t - Long Range Radio
42t - Fire Control (1908)
25t - Night Listening Devices (1904)
60t - Electric T&E for main battery
24t - 2x3x21in HW TT on sides

[TacCovert4]

And a slimmed down 210mm variant as well.

Atlatl, Aztec Frigate laid down 1920

Displacement:
   13,420 t light; 13,956 t standard; 15,321 t normal; 16,413 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (650.52 ft / 646.33 ft) x 72.18 ft x (21.29 / 22.47 ft)
   (198.28 m / 197.00 m) x 22.00 m  x (6.49 / 6.85 m)

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm 45.0 cal guns - 284.98lbs / 129.26kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 3.94" / 100 mm 50.0 cal guns - 32.30lbs / 14.65kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.08lbs / 5.03kg shells, 300 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      16 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2,713 lbs / 1,230 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   2.36" / 60 mm   180.45 ft / 55.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     6.56 ft / 2.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   2.36" / 60 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   1.06" / 27 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
   Forecastle: 1.26" / 32 mm  Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.15" / 80 mm, Aft 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 103,191 shp / 76,981 Kw = 31.50 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,457 tons

Complement:
   688 - 895

Cost:
   £2.866 million / $11.462 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 585 tons, 3.8 %
      - Guns: 585 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 3,643 tons, 23.8 %
      - Belts: 1,717 tons, 11.2 %
      - Armament: 527 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,316 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Towers: 84 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,608 tons, 23.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,449 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,901 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 134 tons, 0.9 %
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 24 tons
      - Above deck: 80 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,870 lbs / 9,013 Kg = 70.3 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  23.79 ft / 7.25 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m,  20.34 ft / 6.20 m
      - Average freeboard:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,254 Square feet or 2,996 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 580 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.19
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform



25t - Long Range Radio
60t - Fire Control (1918)
25t - Night Listening Devices (1912)
24t - 2x3x21in HW TT on sides

[The Rock Doctor]

I have variations on the same theme, I just have poured to much into Land/Air/Dep to build them.

I'm fine with big M&H guns. I dislike your twin mounted version.

In the 160-195mm range with [mounts[/u] you see historical comments that the guns were a bit unwieldy, and rate of fire would slow some in longer combats due to weight, but the various nations continued to design follow up classes with guns in that range - a good hint they found the compromises worth it.

The Brits addressed this in the Hawkins class 7.5" with adding power assist, and a M&H.

So what I don't like  is the twin aspect.

I understood the Hawkins' 7.5" to be sort of the end-point in M&H cruiser guns, though.  Did somebody come along with a heavier weapon afterward?

[TacCovert4]

Not really.  The treaty systems kind of shafted that though.  7in in US Service and 7.5 in British Service had been decided upon as the fastest gun that could be rapidly serviced by a crew.  The 8in gun sort of popped up as the standard heavy cruiser gun because WNT set the max at 8in and nobody wanted to be caught out with a smaller gun.  Had the WNT not existed, I think that 7-7.5in guns would have been extremely popular guns interwar for general purpose cruisers, with 5.5-6in guns on small cruisers. 

But yeah, the US did twin mount and hoist 8in guns on the Pensacolas and Northamptons, those aren't actual turrets.  So I went with a 7in twin mounting, but with the caveat on my ships that have it that I toss on 15t per mount to account for electrically powered training and elevation motors, cable runs, and controls.

[The Rock Doctor]

Huh.  I didn't realize that was the case.