The Caicos Affair Discussion

[Kaiser Kirk]

I'd wager part of the issue that the E-class suffered was weather related. They are almost-sub level seaboats and had that fight in the outer edge of a tropical storm.

While I was watching Seastate, the water was smooth enough for MTBs, which meant your unseaworthy E class could be there.

The bigger problem is you had far to small a fleet for the job.
So the 10 Eclass were scattered.  Two were assigned counterbattery on the beach, lobbing HE at muzzle flashes. Mainly deterrence. 2 were pickets North and South of the island.
Which led to 3 DDs being defeated 'in detail'.  You lost a couple to the Scout Cruisers on pretty lucky hits, and then were just outgunned.

After the battle :
Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.64
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

came into play.
Granted, the slower that vessel goes, the better the seakeeping, so it's a fuzzy number, but you get a warning like that and it's a problem.
I'm going to view their seawortheness about the same as an MTB. They need to be in seastate 4 or less to avoid penalties, and stay out of anything resembling a storm.

Another aspect is that in your quest for speed, you build delicate short range destroyers. 750t, built 1908, Speed 31.28, Survivability:  158 lbs....
Compare that to the 2/3rds size Scimitar class :    Survivability :  141 lbs
While the slower, but same size/era 4x90mm  Parthian 'Parthian Bow' class  750t, built 1908, speed 28.0knts  20% more range, Survivability::  287 lbs - nearly twice the E on the same tonnage and nearly the same guns.

So

[Desertfox]

So as I understand it, it was more a factor of the Roman destroyers under-performing compared to the Chinese destroyers, due to a combination of fragility and tactics (defeat in detail)? In other words, the lessons learned from Jeju where the correct ones, while Caicos was more an anomaly?

[snip]

Ya, I think Grand Turk is more anomaly, the fault of Roman tactics. The only thing you can take from Caicos is dont put destroyers under heavy secondary fire, it just wont end well.

[The Rock Doctor]

Curious to see if the Aztecs continue to try and bleed the Romans with what remains of their navy or if this battle effectively ends things.

[maddox]

The main question is actualy "Cui Bono"

Diminished Aztec and Roman navies.... Who can reap the fruit of that branch?

[Desertfox]

Well the war has taken both navies out as players in the Pacific. But that doesn't help Japan much either way.

[Kaiser Kirk]

So as I understand it, it was more a factor of the Roman destroyers under-performing compared to the Chinese destroyers, due to a combination of fragility and tactics (defeat in detail)? In other words, the lessons learned from Jeju where the correct ones, while Caicos was more an anomaly?

Different 'lessons'  appear to different evaluators.

You absolutely need to fit Destroyers with Fire Control.
The British modified their fire control setup so they could fit a limited version in their Destroyers, fairly early on.

Caicos is a poor example in several ways, but 12 smaller DDs took on 20 larger ones, and claimed 1:1.
As destroyer size/survivability increases, it becomes hard to get enough 70/75mm hits to destroy one, so you are relying on criticals.

With Destroyers, they are small, stuffed with machinery and guns and unarmored,
shell splinters have potential for criticals regardless of where they hit.
Which could be extra structural damage, or removing a searchlight...
But with a 70/75mm you are expecting to land 4-6 shots to disable/sink.

Shells around 100mm are still effective, but it takes several shots. 2-4 depending on size.
This will get worse as destroyers get more robust.

The Romans found their 14cm very effective against smaller and older Destroyers.
It will be less so against newer, modern destroyers.

I've highlighted the great differences in floatation by design.
This really effects how many shells they can take, but has the downside
that a random Crit can do them in, and damage degrades performance.

Turning broadside with a destroyer looks to be a bad choice.
Bow on, or Angled, makes a substantial difference in how many times you get hit.
The 1 bow gun arrangements had difficulty making hits until they turned broadside.
Also, the single gun forward was a distinct limitation, as it gave barely enough shots to range on, reduced the chance to hit.
Over time, that 39kg weight would start limiting ROF without a hoist, but they got shot up.

To get full 'credit' for your 'to hit', you kinda need a ROF about 10+ in any direction.

It should be noted that the way the "To Hit" works, is you bundle shots in clusters of 10.
Less than that, you get proportionally lower "To hit", Higher than that, you get a roll per cluster.
Which means a single 14cm forward is not going to get the full benefit of the "To Hit" value.

while a 24 ROF translates to 3 rolls, the 3rd at a ~40% of whatever your raw "To Hit" is.
There's even a small chance at 2 or 3 hits instead of 1.


PS :..anyone hostile to Parthia please build  Destroyers with  12:1 LB, very short range, high speed, poor seakeeping, and a 1x180mm gun mounted aft

[Kaiser Kirk]

The main question is actualy "Cui Bono"

Diminished Aztec and Roman navies.... Who can reap the fruit of that branch?

Sadly, I've been running around enough I'm not sure which Navies are strongest.
Wilno seems to come out best, as neither can really challenge her in the Caribbean anymore, and that's central to her colonies.

The Maya and Norse also benefit, but without players can not take advantage.
Five tribes comes out worse as potential allies on the other side of Wilno are diminished. However, relations on that border are fine, so that's not a big deal.

Parthia's interest in that area is limited to some strategic points. Due to the Treaty of Malta, she has to consider Rome more of Neutral or even a Byzantine ally, than as a potential Parthian Ally.

[The Rock Doctor]

The Union has been trying to ensure that the Five Nations have an outlet for expansion, rather than block them outright.

[TacCovert4]

Curious to see if the Aztecs continue to try and bleed the Romans with what remains of their navy or if this battle effectively ends things.

Rome has been offered a settlement of one particularly worthless piece of Texas desert for islands so apparently strategic that Rome would commit to a war of annihilation.

It remains to be seen if Rome will accept the offer or if a few hundred thousand Roman's need to die first.  Whenever the international papers get the casualty lists from ironbottom bay, and the Aztecs will be honestly sending those as it's a glorious last stand against overwhelming odds......I wonder how long Rome will abide its governments excess.  I figure they can suppress their own papers, but not iberian and wilno papers getting across the border.  Ten thousand men and all that shipping lost in a fight with opposition that would be considered clearly inferior?  Plus the lies about grand turk.......

[The Rock Doctor]

So where are things at now, guys?

[snip]

Nothing really happened in September, waiting on October results.

[TacCovert4]

Nothing really happened in September, waiting on October results.

Waiting on me to submit October orders.   Probably tonight.   Latest tomorrow morning.

[The Rock Doctor]

More blood for the blood god, then.

[TacCovert4]

More blood for the blood god, then.

One always hopes for no.  Rome only need cease this folly and the spilling of blood ceases with it.  Upon the Emperor's Hands does all of this blood flow, upon his shoulders does the responsibility for this war lie.