Japanese Design Concepts

[Jefgte]

The ship is not very stable (1.04) with the MTBs piled high ...

=> Tomozuru is a good name for that ship  ;D

[The Rock Doctor]

Maybe it's a Voltron thing where the 40 MTBs just kind of merge into one light cruiser.

[snip]

I would argue that if stacking is the intended method of storage, then the weight allocated should be set to Above Freeboard not On Deck so as to better express actual stability.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Fox,
The Jengie I class currently ships the MTBs and Subs in a manner suitable for combat. This makes them armament.
This is not acceptable in a vessel paid for as auxiliary.

Please either
1) pay for it as a warship,
2) repost the sim and redesignate the miscellaneous weight on the Jengie I class

30t - LR wireless + FC
40t - 20 Marines
30t - Camouflage
800t - Cranes and space for 10 x 40t TB (M) or 4 x 100t Submarines (S)
400t - 4,000t of Out-of-port resupply

Please revise to
400t - Cargo Space for 10 x 40t TB (M) or 4 x 100t Submarines (S)
400t (sometthing else)

Also, when designating such things, the brackets and fittings for 10 MTBs is not the same as the brackets and fittings for 4 x 100t subs. 
Please specify one or the other.

The other question is how you FIT that many 20m long MTBs on a 90mx15m long ship and have room for it's superstructure??

I see the stacking thread above, I agree if that is the method, then it is not "On Deck" as the weight is Above Deck.

[Jefgte]

30t - LR wireless + FC
40t - 20 Marines
30t - Camouflage
800t - Cranes and space for 10 x 40t TB (M) or 4 x 100t Submarines (S)
400t - 4,000t of Out-of-port resupply

Probably 400t, not 4000t

[Desertfox]

The car elevator was a tongue-in-cheek joke, seeing how they are quite popular in Japan.

The Jengie I class currently ships the MTBs and Subs in a manner suitable for combat. This makes them armament.
This is not acceptable in a vessel paid for as auxiliary.

Please either
1) pay for it as a warship,
2) repost the sim and redesignate the miscellaneous weight on the Jengie I class

Please revise to
400t - Cargo Space for 10 x 40t TB (M) or 4 x 100t Submarines (S)
400t (sometthing else)

I'm seriously confused here. I posted a design using the "auxiliary" method and was told that was not correct, that I had to use the 2t per 1t of boat rule. Also this ship is designed to transport MTBs and subs to bases that might not have full port facilities.

And speaking seriously, how combat capable is a 14kt transport?

Also, when designating such things, the brackets and fittings for 10 MTBs is not the same as the brackets and fittings for 4 x 100t subs.
Please specify one or the other.

When built, I made a note of whether they carried MTBs (M) or subs (S).

The other question is how you FIT that many 20m long MTBs on a 90mx15m long ship and have room for it's superstructure??

I measured and made a drawing:

[Desertfox]

Something a bit more insane. Auxiliary specifically designed to be torpedoed. Each capital ship would be assigned one as an escort, in a torpedo attack they would place themselves in the path of the torpedoes as a form of mobile torpedo net and absorb the torpedoes. For that role they are stuffed with a sophisticated TDS, including bulges, extensive internal subdivisions (electric drive), and layers of fuel and cork, with any unused internal space stuffed full of cork. They also carry a pair of boats to help with repairs and extensive damage control gear.

Sumo, Japan Torpedo Defense Ship laid down 1917

Displacement:
   2,293 t light; 2,355 t standard; 2,893 t normal; 3,323 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 40.00 ft (Bulges 50.00 ft) x (12.50 / 14.32 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 12.19 m (Bulges 15.24 m)  x (3.81 / 4.36 m)

Armament:
      12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
     2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 48 lbs / 22 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      0.50" / 13 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 30.00 ft / 9.14 m

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 10,455 shp / 7,800 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 969 tons

Complement:
   196 - 256

Cost:
   £0.248 million / $0.993 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 0.3 %
      - Guns: 8 tons, 0.3 %
   Armour: 41 tons, 1.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 41 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 383 tons, 13.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 731 tons, 25.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 600 tons, 20.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,130 tons, 39.1 %
      - Hull below water: 800 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 330 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,484 lbs / 2,034 Kg = 41.5 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.63
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.542
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   35.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.56 ft / 3.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,297 Square feet or 771 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 147 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 276 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

160t - 2 x 40 ton Repair Inspection Boats
70t - Observation Balloon/Minesweeping Gear
100t - Damage Control Equipment
700t - Cork
100t - Electric Drive

[The Rock Doctor]

I love it!

*Sets torpedoes to run at 5 metres*

[Desertfox]

That... is an issue. I might build one of these as a TDS test ship and target ship, let my submariners have a real target to shoot at with real torpedoes.

[The Rock Doctor]

Just build bigger and deeper torpedo absorption ships.

[Desertfox]

Bigger = more expensive

[The Rock Doctor]

But saving your capital ships makes it worthwhile!

[Desertfox]

While ya'll are looking at monsters, I went the other way and tried to design a PBR. But SS3 hates planning hulls. Even going much longer and narrower than the historical ships doesn't work.

PBR, Japan Patrol Boat River laid down 1915

Displacement:
   10 t light; 10 t standard; 11 t normal; 11 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (51.46 ft / 50.00 ft) x 10.00 ft x (2.00 / 2.05 ft)
   (15.68 m / 15.24 m) x 3.05 m  x (0.61 / 0.63 m)

Armament:
      2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg

Machinery:
   Petrol Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 219 shp / 163 Kw = 15.50 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 tons

Complement:
   2 - 3

Cost:
   £0.002 million / $0.007 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.8 %
      - Guns: 0 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 6 tons, 51.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 tons, 39.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 tons, 8.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6 lbs / 3 Kg = 93.3 x 0.5 " / 13 mm shells or 0.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 8.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 29 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.386
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 7.07 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 79 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 100
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m,  3.00 ft / 0.91 m
      - Average freeboard:      3.12 ft / 0.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 304 Square feet or 28 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 10 lbs/sq ft or 49 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.70
      - Longitudinal: 3.56
      - Overall: 0.82
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[Desertfox]

On the other hand, this design works great:

PBR, Japan Patrol Boat River laid down 1915

Displacement:
   20 t light; 27 t standard; 28 t normal; 28 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (51.82 ft / 50.00 ft) x 12.00 ft x (3.00 / 3.06 ft)
   (15.79 m / 15.24 m) x 3.66 m  x (0.91 / 0.93 m)

Armament:
      3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1915 Model
     1 x Triple mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg

Machinery:
   Petrol Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 67 shp / 50 Kw = 10.00 kts
   Range 1,900nm at 5.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 tons

Complement:
   5 - 7

Cost:
   £0.002 million / $0.010 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 7.8 %
      - Guns: 2 tons, 7.8 %
   Machinery: 3 tons, 9.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 tons, 30.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8 tons, 29.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 7 tons, 23.4 %
      - Hull below water: 1 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 5 tons
      - Above deck: 1 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     50 lbs / 23 Kg = 12.6 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.90

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.543
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 7.07 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 79
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   35.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Average freeboard:      4.14 ft / 1.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 415 Square feet or 39 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 154 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 75 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.81
      - Longitudinal: 6.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Desertfox]

Dedicated mine transport ship, can rearm minelayers without shore facilities. Carries 4 small minelayers. Designed to support defensive minelaying operations at colonial ports and anchorages.

Miney McMineface Maru, Japan Mine Transport laid down 1915

Displacement:
   2,489 t light; 2,561 t standard; 2,722 t normal; 2,850 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 42.00 ft x (14.00 / 14.52 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 12.80 m  x (4.27 / 4.42 m)

Armament:
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 174 lbs / 79 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 7,982 shp / 5,955 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 289 tons

Complement:
   187 - 244

Cost:
   £0.210 million / $0.839 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 1.5 %
      - Guns: 42 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 302 tons, 11.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 780 tons, 28.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 232 tons, 8.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,360 tons, 50.0 %
      - Hull below water: 575 tons
      - Hull above water: 500 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 185 tons
      - Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,036 lbs / 1,831 Kg = 64.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.56

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.545
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.12 ft / 4.30 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,711 Square feet or 809 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 282 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.20
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

100t - LR Wireless, Experimental Radar, Observation Balloon, Minelaying Flag facilities
25t - Cranes and stuff
160t - 4 x 20 ton minelayers
1000t - Mines


***


Mini M, Japan Minelayer laid down 1915

Displacement:
   20 t light; 20 t standard; 21 t normal; 22 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (50.00 ft / 50.00 ft) x 10.00 ft x (3.00 / 3.11 ft)
   (15.24 m / 15.24 m) x 3.05 m  x (0.91 / 0.95 m)

Machinery:
   Petrol Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 53 shp / 40 Kw = 10.00 kts
   Range 500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 tons

Complement:
   4 - 6

Cost:
   £0.001 million / $0.006 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 2 tons, 9.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 tons, 8.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 46.7 %
      - On freeboard deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     96 lbs / 44 Kg = 0.9 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 9.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.506
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 7.07 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Average freeboard:      4.12 ft / 1.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 32.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 333 Square feet or 31 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 13 lbs/sq ft or 62 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 7.95
      - Overall: 1.11
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10t - Mines