A Question of Strategy

Jefgte · August 19, 2020, 06:18:04 PM

QuoteWe can swap VTE for turbines? I didn't think that was the case.

Ship laid down in 1914 => Turbines

QuoteWhat is the cost of this work, Jef?

No cost. Just SS what a PD could be in 1914.

;)

TacCovert4 · August 19, 2020, 06:27:35 PM

Quote from: The Rock Doctor on August 19, 2020, 06:14:20 PM
We can swap VTE for turbines? I didn't think that was the case.

What is the cost of this work, Jef?

You could swap VTE to turbines, but you have to add Electric Drives as your final drives due to the vast difference between the shaft runs of the two.

The Rock Doctor · August 19, 2020, 06:34:20 PM

Ah, okay.

Kaiser Kirk · August 20, 2020, 11:41:33 AM

Interesting question Rocky.

The Mallet designs the Parthians submitted to the Incas are modifications of designs I've played with to answer this question.

Heavy offensive armanent - While fire control suffers with fewer barrels, and survivability is less with fewer turrets, I presume the foe will be faster and can pick the range, so make it hard to figure out a good one to pick.
Enough armor to force the foe to close to kill you...at which point you should be able to kill them.
Preferably enough speed to stay away from predreads and early dreads.
Good torpedo craft defenses.

Being able to hide in shallower inshore waters is likely a plus.
So the most out of a little package is good for affordability.

For colonies far from home fleets, if they have to dispatch major units for months to hunt down a PD/Pocket BB, that's a win, weakening the home fleet you might be trying to fight.

Armored Cruisers :
I really like the idea of armored cruisers for some reason, but they've already inflated to huge sizes and become battlecruisers already. Plus the length needed for speed & size makes supplying repair docks pricey. I'm really been looking at what are essentially 9" heavy cruisers- like the Norse, as a midsized answer for the role of defeating smaller cruisers and being independent flagships, while leaving Battlecruiser/Fast battleship types to compliment the line of battle.

PDs
I had long considered upgrading my PDs later, which is one reason I went for big powerful ones instead of small cheap ones.
I was hoping they would maintain some fighting capability. I think the Smurgh and Rakash classes do, but the older Turtle does not.

Jefgte's work on rebuilding some of his led me to take a hard look at what rebuilding would mean.

Guns are vexing issue, as the old turret barbette is limiting, but I have researched new ones that can fit in the old barbettes.

Even so, I've found the total cost of new guns, engines, etc....is a bit less than a new vessel in $, and much less in BP.
As colonies start generating $ , BP will become the limiter on construction.
So the 'Bang for the Buck' is there.

On VTE/Turbines : Yes, moving to turbo-electric is doable. But since 1/4 of the weight has to be set aside for engines,
simply replacing the VTE with new VTE is turning out the better option in some cases - in particular where Max speed is limited by seakeeping.

Jefgte · August 20, 2020, 04:08:11 PM

Certainly the smaller with your guns

CBB2, Zwiazek Wilno laid down 1914

Displacement:
   8 530 t light; 9 065 t standard; 9 642 t normal; 10 103 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (476,00 ft / 475,00 ft) x 64,00 ft x (20,95 / 21,72 ft)
   (145,08 m / 144,78 m) x 19,51 m x (6,38 / 6,62 m)

Armament:
4 - 11,03" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 676,68lbs / 306,94kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 7,87" / 200 mm 45,0 cal guns - 245,80lbs / 111,49kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1914 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3,95" / 100 mm 45,0 cal guns - 31,08lbs / 14,10kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 50,0 cal guns - 0,01lbs / 0,00kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4 922 lbs / 2 232 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,05" / 230 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   3,55" / 90 mm   170,00 ft / 51,82 m   6,00 ft / 1,83 m
   Upper:   3,55" / 90 mm   305,00 ft / 92,96 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,05" / 230 mm   2,77" / 70 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   3,55" / 90 mm   1,37" / 35 mm      2,37" / 60 mm
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,57" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 1,37" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1,37" / 35 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 2,37" / 60 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29 954 shp / 22 346 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 7 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 039 tons (20% coal)

Complement:
   486 - 632

Cost:
   £1,044 million / $4,176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 822 tons, 8,5 %
     - Guns: 822 tons, 8,5 %
   Armour: 3 064 tons, 31,8 %
     - Belts: 1 562 tons, 16,2 %
     - Armament: 497 tons, 5,2 %
     - Armour Deck: 905 tons, 9,4 %
     - Conning Towers: 100 tons, 1,0 %
   Machinery: 1 175 tons, 12,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 287 tons, 34,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 112 tons, 11,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 181 tons, 1,9 %
     - Hull below water: 8 tons
     - Hull above water: 76 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 20 tons
     - Above deck: 77 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13 403 lbs / 6 079 Kg = 20,0 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 14,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,530 / 0,536
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,00 ft / 0,30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   18,00 %, 21,00 ft / 6,40 m, 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
     - Forward deck:   32,00 %, 18,00 ft / 5,49 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Aft deck:   32,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Quarter deck:   18,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Average freeboard:      16,24 ft / 4,95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 20 823 Square feet or 1 935 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 582 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,75
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Jefgte · August 20, 2020, 04:19:19 PM

An other rapid SS with 3T2x280+12x130 - always 230mm belt - 24kts - 7500nm

CBB3, Zwiazek Wilno laid down 1914

Displacement:
   9 400 t light; 9 931 t standard; 10 543 t normal; 11 033 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (491,00 ft / 490,00 ft) x 66,00 ft x (21,33 / 22,10 ft)
   (149,66 m / 149,35 m) x 20,12 m x (6,50 / 6,74 m)

Armament:
6 - 11,03" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 676,68lbs / 306,94kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1914 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 5,10" / 130 mm 45,0 cal guns - 66,89lbs / 30,34kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1914 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3,95" / 100 mm 45,0 cal guns - 31,08lbs / 14,10kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 50,0 cal guns - 0,01lbs / 0,00kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1914 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5 111 lbs / 2 319 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,05" / 230 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   3,55" / 90 mm   170,00 ft / 51,82 m   6,00 ft / 1,83 m
   Upper:   3,55" / 90 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,05" / 230 mm   2,77" / 70 mm      7,87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   3,55" / 90 mm   1,37" / 35 mm      2,37" / 60 mm
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -
   5th:   0,39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,57" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 1,37" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1,37" / 35 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 2,37" / 60 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31 369 shp / 23 401 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 7 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 102 tons (20% coal)

Complement:
   519 - 676

Cost:
   £1,185 million / $4,739 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 904 tons, 8,6 %
     - Guns: 904 tons, 8,6 %
   Armour: 3 384 tons, 32,1 %
     - Belts: 1 627 tons, 15,4 %
     - Armament: 683 tons, 6,5 %
     - Armour Deck: 968 tons, 9,2 %
     - Conning Towers: 106 tons, 1,0 %
   Machinery: 1 231 tons, 11,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 700 tons, 35,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 143 tons, 10,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 181 tons, 1,7 %
     - Hull below water: 8 tons
     - Hull above water: 76 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 20 tons
     - Above deck: 77 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14 187 lbs / 6 435 Kg = 21,1 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,75
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,535 / 0,540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,00 ft / 0,30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   18,00 %, 21,00 ft / 6,40 m, 18,00 ft / 5,49 m
     - Forward deck:   32,00 %, 18,00 ft / 5,49 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Aft deck:   32,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Quarter deck:   18,00 %, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m, 15,00 ft / 4,57 m
     - Average freeboard:      16,24 ft / 4,95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 22 255 Square feet or 2 068 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 611 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,62
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Desertfox · August 20, 2020, 04:27:31 PM

There is definitely a niche for colonial cruisers/pocket battleships. Ships capable of taking on a pre-dread or old armored cruiser, while not being overly expensive.

I am seriously considering the Owari class small BC as the Australian flagship, 8x10", 27kts, on 11,000 tons.

Kaiser Kirk · August 21, 2020, 05:06:07 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on August 20, 2020, 04:27:31 PM
There is definitely a niche for colonial cruisers/pocket battleships. Ships capable of taking on a pre-dread or old armored cruiser, while not being overly expensive.

I am seriously considering the Owari class small BC as the Australian flagship, 8x10", 27kts, on 11,000 tons.

Break time !

Took me a little bit to find it as it wasn't under battlecruisers. Then a bit to see how you fit that much on that hull.
Then I poked about and got sucked into a wild goose chase, thinking the Owari class has the same critical flaw as I noticed with your Maya class.
But if an 84% belt doesn't get a you a warning, and 0.84*0.65 = 0.546% of length, then
the fact your armor deck only covers 55% of the length doesn't matter.

Maya, with 107% belt, would be at 0.6995 vitals, but only 35% covered by the armored deck.

Not sure but the Maya also looks like the TDS doesn't actually cover from the bottom to the waterline, guessing you added 0.25m draft but didn't recalc the armor.

Ahh I should get back to work, getting emails and a