General Social/Chatter Thread

[The Rock Doctor]

Ballast makes sense.  Even if I pay for it, it'd be less expensive than adding armor or machinery.  I should probably check out the seakeeping/steadiness/stability stats of the ship with the guns removed to see how performance is affected. 

Won't make economic sense to just take the guns out for the sake of selling them.  If I invest $0.50 in a refresh of the 200mm/45 gun, though, it's eight functionally new turrets to arm a pair of cruisers.

I find it ironic that it's a huge hull - 15,000 t - and yet the design is so very limiting for future use.

[Desertfox]

Oh I meant sell the entire ship ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

Oh I meant sell the entire ship ;)

Talk to me in late 1915, then...

[TacCovert4]

To ask this question.

Specific remote listening/sensor installations cost 25t apiece.  This is more in line with remote listening stations, Radar, ASDIC, Hydrophones, etc. 

I had noticed that a number of ships, and typically the smaller vessels, wouldn't have anything so extensive in this era.  Now a 1500t or 2000t DD might, but not a 750t DD.  I've also noticed that a number of players note a few tons to 'searchlights and other night fighting equipment'.

So I was wondering, does dropping say 2 tons on a smaller vessel into 'additional scopes and searchlights' count at all as boosting its ability to fight at night?  No I wouldn't expect the ship to be throwing broadsides at 15,000yds, but generally have it more aware and more capable of acquiring a target at night within the point-blank to say 8000yd envelope?

[The Rock Doctor]

I guess we didn't have any consensus on Tac's questions above.

Night-fighting is a challenge for me.  It's a technology but I don't think it ought to be.  I think of it more as a doctrine in the same vein as juene d'ecole or mass torpedo attacks or risky shell-handling procedures to increase rate of fire.  The equipment has essentially negligible mass and is largely standard fittings on a ship anyway.  But I fit the "night-fighting doodads" into a lot of classes for flavor and to indicate that I nonetheless have the Union paying attention to that tech/doctrine.

But the remote sensing stuff - war tubas, Huelsmeyer devices - they're basically science fiction to me.  I have no idea how they work or how they affect rolls.  I don't know if anybody actually used them in combat and to what effect.  So I don't allocate tonnage for them. 

[The Rock Doctor]

I have 0.449 BP unallocated in my draft H2/15 report and I have a tremendous urge to do something wild and amazing with it.

[Darman]

- war tubas,

I just figured they were an integral part of the ship complement's brass band

[The Rock Doctor]

- war tubas,

I just figured they were an integral part of the ship complement's brass band

*Furiously looks for the Like button*

[The Rock Doctor]

For some reason, I dreamt that Jef was developing a 73 caliber capital ship gun and I was like, "BUT JEF THE BARREL LIFE!"

There are worse things to dream about.

[snip]

I mean, its a valid concern. Do we need to have an intervention Jef? Over-calibering is a serious thing and we support you on your journey to overcoming this obstacle.

[Jefgte]

In the past, in my Panzerschiff studies, I had installed 800mm torpedoes tubes. A single impact could cut a 10,000t cruiser in half or put a battleship out of action.
I had also studied a "Bismarck" with 2T2 x 800 (Schwerer Gustav)

Crazy Jef  :o  ::)

[Jefgte]

I found it, the SS is from 1-12-2007 !!!

Gustav, Germany Battleship laid down 1942

Displacement:
   72 000 t light; 77 580 t standard; 81 367 t normal; 84 396 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (980,09 ft / 964,57 ft) x 124,67 ft x (35,03 / 36,16 ft)
   (298,73 m / 294,00 m) x 38,00 m  x (10,68 / 11,02 m)

Armament:
      4 - 31,50" / 800 mm 45,0 cal guns - 15 622,09lbs / 7 086,06kg shells, 105 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1942 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      12 - 7,99" / 203 mm 45,0 cal guns - 255,23lbs / 115,77kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1942 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
      16 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1942 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
      8 raised mounts
      32 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,54lbs / 0,70kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1942 Model
     16 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
      32 raised mounts
      64 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,24lbs / 0,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1942 Model
     32 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
      32 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 66 181 lbs / 30 019 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,6" / 320 mm   688,98 ft / 210,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   4,72" / 120 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
     78,74 ft / 24,00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4,02" / 102 mm   692,26 ft / 211,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1,97" / 50 mm   754,59 ft / 230,00 m   34,45 ft / 10,50 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 98,43 ft / 30,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,7" / 400 mm   9,84" / 250 mm      15,0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm   2,36" / 60 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 5,91" / 150 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13,78" / 350 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,  plus diesel motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 173 222 shp / 129 224 Kw = 28,14 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6 816 tons

Complement:
   2 408 - 3 131

Cost:
   £59,453 million / $237,811 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 494 tons, 9,2 %
      - Guns: 7 494 tons, 9,2 %
   Armour: 22 198 tons, 27,3 %
      - Belts: 6 174 tons, 7,6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1 893 tons, 2,3 %
      - Armament: 5 187 tons, 6,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 8 386 tons, 10,3 %
      - Conning Tower: 557 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 4 525 tons, 5,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 37 383 tons, 45,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9 367 tons, 11,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0,5 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 100 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     86 091 lbs / 39 050 Kg = 5,5 x 31,5 " / 800 mm shells or 11,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 8,6 ft / 2,6 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,676 / 0,679
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 31,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   18,00 %,  34,45 ft / 10,50 m,  25,26 ft / 7,70 m
      - Forward deck:   22,00 %,  25,26 ft / 7,70 m,  21,98 ft / 6,70 m
      - Aft deck:   43,00 %,  21,98 ft / 6,70 m,  21,98 ft / 6,70 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,00 %,  21,98 ft / 6,70 m,  21,98 ft / 6,70 m
      - Average freeboard:      23,59 ft / 7,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 94 330 Square feet or 8 764 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 302 lbs/sq ft or 1 473 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,07
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Warning: Calibre too large - Main Battery

Of course, I know !!!
weight of gun 1344tons

[The Rock Doctor]

Oh dear.

[Desertfox]

I love it! It doesn't shoot shells, it shoots entire MTBs!

[Kaiser Kirk]

The reality is 25 tons "overpays" for some, and "underpays" for others.
Part of this is it's not weight tonnage, but also volume (GRT) for the personnel and spares and what not.

The gear really does not care how big your vessel is. Either you have space for it, or not.
Partial suites get partial ability....or none depending on the gear.
In general these 1-2t things will be looked at, but be of limited use.

Example :
Snip had 2t allocated for Paravanes on DDs.
After reading on Paravanes, I decided that meant the cables towing the cutting floats were short, and light gauge, and he did not have spare cutting floats.
So I let it work for a narrow path and 1 mine each. Had he encountered a minefield of any depth, they would have been inadequate.
As it was, the early WW1 mines could not be moored in deep water, so it was moot.


As Rocky observes, "Night fighting" is in large part doctrine.   I did/do make a difference on how complex one can move/act at night.
The 1905 basically allows line-ahead, 1908 some limited formations, etc.

"Searchlights" I interpret as adding engagement range.
As I recall, I've been using :
No searchlight = 3000-6000m engagement range.   
Standard ships gear of a searchlight = 8000m range.
"Searchlight Tower" ala British Battleships : ~10-12,000m
"Starshell" : 12000 +/-, need a 75mm+ gun....but can be shot by screening units as well.

Hulesmeyer :
In-game, it works out to 10,000m, and basically is a detector telling you something reflective is "that a way"
Not horribly useful...unless you're a sentry in the dark, in which case it could be useful.

War Tuba :
These are actually land devices, clusters of very large hearing horns which are mounted and pivot. They magnify the listener's hearing and so were used for early detection of airplanes. At sea they could also hear airplane engines...like those in MTBs.

Folks may note the most recent Parthian cruisers have Hulesmeyer and War Tubas.
While much of my ship design is based on what I think are solid practices, those are are there in reaction to the wars we've had.
They indicate Parthia's concern - as does their retrofitting the Tiamat with torpedo nets - about night time torpedo attack.
Likewise Parthia is working on starshell.

All of which is a little funny, as Parthia's fire control, heavy secondaries, TDS and torpedo nets would make her Capital ships much tougher targets.
Anyhow, I expect future refits to take at least the War Tubas off.

To ask this question.

Specific remote listening/sensor installations cost 25t apiece.  This is more in line with remote listening stations, Radar, ASDIC, Hydrophones, etc. 

I had noticed that a number of ships, and typically the smaller vessels, wouldn't have anything so extensive in this era.  Now a 1500t or 2000t DD might, but not a 750t DD.  I've also noticed that a number of players note a few tons to 'searchlights and other night fighting equipment'.

So I was wondering, does dropping say 2 tons on a smaller vessel into 'additional scopes and searchlights' count at all as boosting its ability to fight at night?  No I wouldn't expect the ship to be throwing broadsides at 15,000yds, but generally have it more aware and more capable of acquiring a target at night within the point-blank to say 8000yd envelope?

I guess we didn't have any consensus on Tac's questions above.

Night-fighting is a challenge for me.  It's a technology but I don't think it ought to be.  I think of it more as a doctrine in the same vein as juene d'ecole or mass torpedo attacks or risky shell-handling procedures to increase rate of fire.  The equipment has essentially negligible mass and is largely standard fittings on a ship anyway.  But I fit the "night-fighting doodads" into a lot of classes for flavor and to indicate that I nonetheless have the Union paying attention to that tech/doctrine.

But the remote sensing stuff - war tubas, Huelsmeyer devices - they're basically science fiction to me.  I have no idea how they work or how they affect rolls.  I don't know if anybody actually used them in combat and to what effect.  So I don't allocate tonnage for them.