Lessons Learned : The Ryukyu Kingdom disagreement.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Yeah... my fleet was not designed to fight this kind of war at all. Would have been nice to know China was going to have 300 TBs when I was designing it.

As you know it's my hope to directly address that problem by having the NPCs have design competitions, with $ to the winner, for known classes.
However, this war has delayed my ability to do much of anything else, including background work on NPCs.

I did make the Chinese OOB available prior to your committing to the war.
You knew how many hulls of which posted class they had.

I made a point not to look at Japan's fleet when putting together the Chinese.
If anything it was more influenced by what the Europeans were putting out.

I tried to tab ships that fit my conceptual version of the Chinese.
That vision was influenced by the now Sino-Horde war and their offensive use night attacks and of TBs.

I wanted on force that could sweep the other side of the China Seas and down into Indonesia as their 'sphere of influence'
And then another force lots of small combatants to protect the home shores and operate against opponents in Chinese waters.
Kept the 4 fleets and various independent cruiser sqdrns / TB bases, so they were scattered at first.

I was looking at my Parthian turnsheet.
As of 1913 HY1, The Parthians have 124 of the MTB-As, 240 of the old 60-tonners - more meant for anti-merchant now-, and 32 TBs, so 396 "torpedo craft" plus 64 destroyers.
I need more destroyers, but I knew that. I also need to fully replace those 60tonners. And then make some small tenders.

[Darman]

Iberia is going to be building some MTBs, because we currently have none.  As well as some designated Anti-MTB/TB escorts. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

  As well as some designated Anti-MTB/TB escorts.

I have SS3 up, working on a fleet sentry/scout cruiser. Already worked on a new destroyer design- though the Chinese version of the Parthian ones have done well.
Just playing with things right now.

[Darman]

  As well as some designated Anti-MTB/TB escorts.

I have SS3 up, working on a fleet sentry/scout cruiser. Already worked on a new destroyer design- though the Chinese version of the Parthian ones have done well.
Just playing with things right now.

Yea I was thinking a scout cruiser-type would make a good basis for an anti-MTB design. 

[Jefgte]

For Byzantium, the "birth" of the Japanese and Chinese fleets in 1912 forced us to have a larger fleet of cruisers and destroyers in Indian Ocean with a large range.

These cruisers and destroyers w'll laid down in 1913 & 1915.

Old 18kts BBs and ACs (too slow) will be sent to scrap to increase expansion & air points.

Combat speed squadrons 21kts & 27kts, scout speed.

[Desertfox]

Just to give everyone a heads up. A peace deal will be signed at the end of July. War's over.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Just to give everyone a heads up. A peace deal will be signed at the end of July. War's over.

So what was agreed to was posted with suitable embellishments. I added a small bonus to it.

In terms of secondary effects:
The settlers of Makassar and Soerabaja are returned to Japan by late August, and can conquer those territories in Late HY2, 1912.

The limitations at Davao and dangers of getting supplies past the Chinese limits the development season to a maximum of $3 in any of those locations in HY2, 1912

1 Land Unit and 1 Deployment point are at 0.5 strength and each must be rebuilt before being usable.

The following damage is done to Japanese Navy :

LD date	Tonnage (L)	Type	Class	Name (if any)		Repair cost	Status
1905	9701	AC	Nisshin	Kasuga			sunk
1902	8710	AC	Azuma	Yakumo			sunk
1899	8904	AC	Izumo	Izumo			sunk
1896	8700	AC	Asama	Asama I			sunk
1896	8700	AC	Asama	Asama II			sunk
1896	8700	AC	Asama	Asama III			sunk
1910	4016M	Aux	Aikoku Maru				1x sunk
1907	700M	Aux	Uji	Uji			4x Sunk (w/Jeju freighters)
1894	9401	BB	Fuji	Fuji			sunk
1906	12900	BC	Ibuki	Ibuki			sunk
1906	12900	BC	Ibuki	Kuruma			sunk
1910	600	DD	Umikaze				12x sunk
1892	2700	PC	Suma	Suma			sunk
1892	2700	PC	Suma	Akashi			sunk
1904	429	TB	Kamikaze				8x sunk
1900	331	TB	Akatsuki				20x sunk
1896	300	TB	Ikazuchi				11x sunk
1905	9701	AC	Nisshin	Nisshen		33.00%	damaged	1 Torpedo, listing, engine room damage 12kts
1902	8710	AC	Azuma	Azuma		10.00%	damaged	1 Torpedo, bow awash
1896	8700	AC	Asama	Asama IV		50.00%	Grounded	Grounded – 2 torpedoes
1904	12301	BB	Katori	Katori		25%%	damaged	1 Torpedo, amidships, engine damage 13knts
1899	11050	BB	Shikishima	Hatsuse		33.00%	damaged	1 torpedo amidships, boilers flooded, 13knts
1894	9401	BB	Fuji	Yashima		50.00%	Grounded	Grounded – 2 torpedoes
1905	12201	BC	Ikoma	Ikoma		50.00%	Grounded	2 torpedoes, sinking
1905	12201	BC	Ikoma	Tsubuka		50.00%	Grounded	2 torpedoes, sinking
1910	600	DD	Umikaze		6x	66.00%	damaged
1910	600	DD	Umikaze		2x	50.00%	damaged
1910	600	DD	Umikaze		3x	25.00%	damaged
1903	4000	PC	Chikuma		2x	66.00%	damaged
1896	4303	PC	Takasago		4x	5.00%	damaged
1902	1100	SC	Chihaya		4x	15.00%	damaged
1904	429	TB	Kamikaze		6x	66.00%	damaged
1904	429	TB	Kamikaze		2x	25.00%	damaged
1904	429	TB	Kamikaze		7x	5.00%	damaged

[Desertfox]

Just for sh!ts and giggles, I have zero intention of building this, but it might find its way into a news article. Inspired by the "escort" B-17s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YB-40_Flying_Fortress

Porcupine, Japan Anti-Destroyer Battleship laid down 1913

Displacement:
   13,995 t light; 14,758 t standard; 16,123 t normal; 17,215 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (573.53 ft / 570.00 ft) x 70.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x (20.00 / 21.37 ft)
   (174.81 m / 173.74 m) x 21.34 m (Bulges 27.43 m)  x (6.10 / 6.51 m)

Armament:
      24 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
      30 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     6 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,474 lbs / 2,483 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   570.00 ft / 173.74 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      3.00" / 76 mm   570.00 ft / 173.74 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 40,373 shp / 30,118 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,456 tons (30% coal)

Complement:
   715 - 930

Cost:
   £1.202 million / $4.810 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,089 tons, 6.8 %
      - Guns: 1,089 tons, 6.8 %
   Armour: 5,405 tons, 33.5 %
      - Belts: 1,772 tons, 11.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,518 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armament: 1,384 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 566 tons, 3.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 165 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,626 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,355 tons, 33.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,127 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 520 tons, 3.2 %
      - Hull below water: 370 tons
      - Above deck: 150 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,531 lbs / 12,941 Kg = 264.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 7.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   50.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Aft deck:   15.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.60 ft / 5.36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,846 Square feet or 2,587 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.13
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150t for 1908 FC, LR wireless. and flagship facilities
370t for Electric-drive

[maddox]

Gernsback in full effect.

[Desertfox]

And another one, replacing the 6in guns with 18in "shotguns".

Porcupine, Japan Anti-Destroyer Battleship laid down 1913

Displacement:
   15,417 t light; 16,303 t standard; 17,735 t normal; 18,881 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (573.53 ft / 570.00 ft) x 70.00 ft (Bulges 90.00 ft) x (22.00 / 23.44 ft)
   (174.81 m / 173.74 m) x 21.34 m (Bulges 27.43 m)  x (6.71 / 7.14 m)

Armament:
      4 - 18.00" / 457 mm 25.0 cal guns - 2,648.59lbs / 1,201.38kg shells, 50 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
      30 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     6 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 13,455 lbs / 6,103 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   570.00 ft / 173.74 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      3.00" / 76 mm   570.00 ft / 173.74 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 42,503 shp / 31,707 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,578 tons (30% coal)

Complement:
   767 - 998

Cost:
   £1.599 million / $6.395 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,598 tons, 9.0 %
      - Guns: 1,598 tons, 9.0 %
   Armour: 5,015 tons, 28.3 %
      - Belts: 1,772 tons, 10.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,518 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armament: 983 tons, 5.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 566 tons, 3.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 176 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,712 tons, 9.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,492 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,318 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 3.4 %
      - Hull below water: 450 tons
      - Above deck: 150 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,623 lbs / 12,076 Kg = 9.1 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.29

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   50.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Aft deck:   15.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.60 ft / 5.36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,846 Square feet or 2,587 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 816 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150t for 1908 FC, LR wireless. and flagship facilities
450t for Electric-drive

[maddox]

If you want an 1920's anti torpedo platform, why not think about incredible torpedo defences, Bulges from beyond, and only 6" guns.

I know I'm thinking about Popov's designs. But with torpedo defense as main point.

[Guinness]

Seems to me multiple destroyers or even light cruisers are better than one lumbering behemoth. You might not bring as many gun barrels to bear (though that is debatable), but the ability to maneuver and cover a larger area seems advantageous to me.

After all, battleships weren't bigger just to be big, they were the smallest size/cost possible to bring what was considered the minimal necessary armament/armor/speed to the fight. They grew over time, but if you look at the development of each successive class and generation, the story is always one of trying to build the minimal ship possible to beat the enemy's ships, not the biggest.

[Desertfox]

I was just having fun with these, I will be going an entirely different direction*, not even bothering with anti-TB escort cruisers. That's why these designs are here and not in the Japanese design thread. However, they will be mentioned in a news article, so I felt they should be posted somewhere for reference.

*Playing defense works up to a point, but any defense can be overwhelmed, so Japan will adopt a more aggressive approach to the TB problem, more akin to the ASW hunter-killer groups used by the allies in the North Atlantic or the fighter sweeps by the 8th Air Force. Defense is a lot easier once the enemy's forces have been cut down to size.

[maddox]

Try to sink a continent with torpedo's.

[The Rock Doctor]

Try to sink a continent with torpedo's.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

*Picks Asia*

DAMMIT.