Lessons Learned : The Ryukyu Kingdom disagreement.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The Chinese must not have taken Escalation Theory, going nuclear early on really limits everyone's options and makes deescalation much less likely, plus it just proved the Japanese point why they can't have the Chinese in those islands.

Actually the Chinese viewed the Japanese actions over tiny kingdoms and going to war in the first place as the escalation.

Trying to say the areas you can't protect well are off limits- in exchange for not attacking areas you can't attack well...that just seemed like trying paper over Japanese weaknesses.

Rejecting the Chinese offer of reciprocal terms for Chinese Ryukyu and Japanese Philippines - shows the Japanese aren't actually motivated by concern for the locals as their propaganda claims.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Also, doesn't Japan landing forces on the islands off the Chosen coast - which are not disputed - kinda break the offer of leaving the homelands out of it?
Which is the part the Chinese Have followed - no raids on Japan's coast, no attacks on the fishing fleet, etc.

[Desertfox]

If the Chinese plan was to force the Japanese to split their forces and fight far away from the homeland, they really screwed up by going after Jeju. My original plan was to try to blockade Okinawa and force a fight over there and had my forces split into 3 main groups. Now I am fighting a lot closer to home and the early losses mean the Japanese are a lot less likely to split up. The early Chinese success has led to the exact opposite result the Chinese were looking for. 

So now the world knows Japan would rather start shooting than talk. Im sure thats a fun topic for the powers with extensive colonial holdings in that area.

This is the 4th war around the Korean area in the last 20 years, involving China, Japan, and the Horde, I wouldn't expect European powers to be too concerned about it.

Japan also made a point to keep actual colonial holdings out of the picture. The only country here attacking colonial holdings and colonial expeditions is China.

Japan and China fighting over Jeju is closer to Rome and Byzantine fighting over some island of the Croatian coast, than over a colonial holding.


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Did the Chinese just publicly admit to piracy? They just attacked unarmed merchants in international waters heading away from Chinese territory, before a declaration of war and told everyone about it (with picture proof).

[Kaiser Kirk]

So I'm trying to relay the Chinese point of view, as best as I get it.
To them, the Ryukyu chain starts 60nm from Taiwan, Cheju-do is 60nm from Taiwan. These are next door to the Chinese. They have as much right to take those as the Japanese do to sail to Manilla, Davao and Jakarta.

Piracy? No they did not commit an act of piracy. They had made everyone aware there was a war and a blockade a week earlier.

Remember, Japan had declared a blockade and that it would attack Chinese warships.
Those are not friendly acts.

As posted in the very first post on the main thread

Chinese Response at Beijing :  The Chinese will inform any Diplomats present in Beijing that the Japanese have taken an act of war by declaring a military blockade of Chinese territory. China will not recognize the blockade, and will not accept Japan landing on it's territory, but will graciously take no offense if this matter is resolved in a week. China will take no action against Japanese merchants or warships outside it's waters, but is extending this distance to 12nm (basically in visual range) for the duration.

China does caution that further acts of war by the Japanese will be met in kind, but China does not seek war at this time.

Japan then did attack one of their armored cruisers.
Blockades are not a peaceful thing.
Attacking warships IS an act of war.

Hours later the Chinese informed the various Diplomatic staff that Japan had attacked their Armored Cruiser and sunk their frieghters.
The two nations are at war.
That night China made this announcement

Night of July 3.

The Chinese Ministry of State delivers formal documents to the various Diplomats in Bejing.

The documents contain the following
Whereas, the Japanese Government has declared Blockade of Chinese territory, Whereas the Japanese Government has threatened to sink Chinese Warships, Whereas this early this morning the Naval Forces of Japan committed acts of war against the Chinese Navy, sinking two freighters and torpedoing an Armored Cruiser, the Government of China recognizes a State of War exists between the two Nations.

The Children of the Dragon have completed a decisive victory this morning, defeating the task force meant to conquer Chinese-occupied Cheju-Do.  The Chinese Empire will attempt to provide photographs as soon as they can be conveyed from the island. Enemy action may make this impossible.

The Chinese Empire declares, in response to the acts of War and the distant Japanese blockade, a distant blockade of the Japanese Empire.  Japanese flagged ships will be taken as prizes. Neutral ships shall have their manifests examined, and if bound for Japan they will be interned at Saigon. Neutral ships North of  line Formosa-Luzon, heading for Japan, shall be deemed on course for Japan and taken to a prize court for judgement.

The Chinese Empire Hereby makes an offer of Peace with the Japanese Empire.   
Cease Hostilities, End the Blockade, Recognize our possessions, and Fire the Ministers responsible for this path, and the Empire of China shall demand no concessions or indemnities for these attacks.

Japan did not take them up on the peace offer.

China then removed enemy warships, enemy auxiliaries, and enemy flagged vessels (loaded with troops).
China then took action against an enemy base.

Basically, to their point of view Japan went to war but said "Hey we're weak over here and you're strong, it's inconvenient to fight over OUR colonies, so we want to keep the war to just about YOUR colonies"...

They are abiding by the Japanese offer not to attack homelands, even though the Japanese landed troops on undisputed Chinese soil.

[Desertfox]

To them, the Ryukyu chain starts 60nm from Taiwan, Cheju-do is 60nm from Taiwan. These are next door to the Chinese. They have as much right to take those as the Japanese do to sail to Manilla, Davao and Jakarta.

And to the Japanese the Ryukyus start at Osumi which is actual Japanese territory (0nm), so they are not just next door, they are (some of them) Japanese.

They are very different from the Philippines, Java, and Borneo, which is why Japan while not liking the Chinese presence in the Philippines/Borneo did not say anything at all about that. The Ryukyus and Jeju have a long history of extensive Japanese and Chinese trade and presence, the other colonies do not. 

Note that the Japanese offer did not require the Chinese to leave the Ryukyus and allowed economic development of them, it merely asked for a significantly reduced military presence.

To the Japanese they see it as "hey lets take this disagreement to the parking lot" while the Chinese go and do a drive-by of the Aunt's house.
 

[Kaiser Kirk]

And to the Japanese the Ryukyus start at Osumi which is actual Japanese territory (0nm), so they are not just next door, they are (some of them) Japanese.

I told you very clearly early on this is not correct

A founding principle of N7 is NO country has valid claim to any unclaimed territory.
The Ryukyu Province is defined by the uncolored islands.
The islands near Japan are Japanese, they are not considered part of Ryukyu.

So to be clear:
The Ryukyu islands are NOT Japanese.  The Japanese are not to consider them in any way part of Japan. 
That includes projecting the island chain from Japan elsewhere.

Beyond that, the two sides have differing view points.
I am sharing the Chinese one, which I have mostly developed with a little help.
You are sharing the Japanese one, which you have developed.

Like most real life diplomatic disagreements, each side is convinced they are right.
The Chinese have been active in getting their out to the global diplomatic community, and they have the advantage of having better access to do so.

[Desertfox]

Sorry, I'm not trying to argue Japan has valid claims. Its not unusual for different countries to own different sections of the same island chain (see Indonesian archipelago).

Japan is just pointing out the absurdity of the Chinese using a tiny speck (red) as the geographical reason for their claim, when geographically speaking the Japanese see the islands they control as part of the same chain. And when the two biggest islands of Okinawa and Asami are closer geographically to Japan than to China.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Agreed :
China is not claiming to have some right to it based on proximity.
They are interested in it based on proximity.
Just as it is inconvenient for the Japanese for China to hold either location
it is inconvenient for China to others seize it.
It's simple right of conquest, which was quite legitimate back then.
Just as Japan has the right to sieze Jakarta, they have the right to seize Ryukyu.

Anyhow those disagreements are basically backstory at this point. I seriously can't envision either side suddenly saying
"Oh, I get it, you're right, sorry for the attacks, let's be best friends and end this"...

As a point of interest,
Pregame, when I was planning out Parthia's colonies by strategic location and arable lands,
I sought out some maps of sailing and steamship routes around 1900, as well as a map of the routes of the 'age of exploration' to add some sails in.
As in our timeline, the world was much different, some of these would have changed.
But aspects would stay true.

A map for 1912 routes shows the route through the straits of Malacca (Singapore), then split and went to Hong Kong-Shanghai-Yokohama, and Manilla-Yokohoma ...passing by the Ryukyus.
A map for 1900 steamship routes shows much the same, but a direct route past Taiwan and up the Ryukyus to Yokohoma. The Gap between Taiwan and Luzon has several routes converging.
From the Age of Discovery map, it looks like the sailing trans-pacific went through Guam to the Philippines and Brunei. While the Portuguese had a trade route through Malacca to Macao ,through the Taiwan strait and then to Japan. All the Malacca routes go right past Saigon.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Commentary:

Again I find myself dealing with multiple forces advancing at different times.
This a tremendous chore to sort out.
Add in that Fox gets new data during the action, and things have to shift.

The closing speed of the two forces means neither side had much time to shoot at each other.
I have not come up with a new way to address range finding,  but since they were going right past each other I put in a bonus and upped it.
Which made that pass very damaging for both sides.

I did find a new and better online dice roller. Really helped generate lots of numbers for that huge number of shots.
Foxy's 50mm hit 65 times with an 18% chance.  The Chinese only hit 15 47mm shots- but had better 75mm luck.
I then could reduce the number of dice to track which ships were actually being hit.
On the plus side, I did not bother with criticals on this one. I just toted up damage.

I am figuring with the Chaos in both formations, and the fact they are now racing apart at 60nm, follow up will be minimal.
It did come up with way to many Impact results on the 'miss/ram/impact', but that's why it's called random.

[Desertfox]

Bloodier than expected, but the Kamikazes did their job, and the 50mm rotaries proved their worth. Now hopefully the rest of the fleet does the same.  The bigger TBs should be easier targets for the bigger guns than the tiny MTBs.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The seekrieg chart has as closest range 3000m,
so I added bonus for knife-fight range, and also lowered the visibility penalty.
It's still trying to hit a 20m long object moving 17m/s  or 1021m/m.
With the 50mm MV at 618m/s I expected most of the hits would occur at the very end, at which point the sheer volume of fire they put out was telling.
The Chinese 47mm made some hits, pretty much on every Japanese boat, but 1-2 hits on a 400ton vessel isn't enough to worry about.

The MTBs hit by 75mm were eliminated from ramming consideration, which left 14.
I figured the 14 MTBs were functionally dying by time they reached the interception points, insides torn by multiple 50mm shells many of which would be landing as the Kamikaze swerved to intercept, but with just seconds before they are past, there's no time for the Kamikazes to evaluate, they just have to go - firing as it closes.  Then they have to aim the vessel ahead of the MTB to intercept it, so when it suddenly starts slowing as 50mm hits kill the engines, that means it impacts into the Kamikaze. I really expected only 1-2 successful rams and another 1-2 impacts, the RNG argued differently.

I had 2 rear 75mm guns from the Kamikazes register hits, to I allocated those to the TBs, killing 2.

[Desertfox]

Yeah I was expecting about the same number of rams as you. RNG just decided since no torpedoes were exchange to transfer its power to the ships!

[The Rock Doctor]

Does Seekrieg have a leadership/morale mechanic in which certain losses will force one side or the other to withdraw or break off action?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Does Seekrieg have a leadership/morale mechanic in which certain losses will force one side or the other to withdraw or break off action?

Yes, but it takes fairly severe losses to even start with a low probability.  I think it's like a 10% chance at 2/3rds strength?  or after 2/3rds damage... can't recall.
  It triggered in the Torpedo 2 battle against the Chinese Pyrite Destroyers when the 24-strong squadron dropped to 5, then scattered.  For the Weihei SQD I was figuring to check it, but they are now sandwiched between enemy forces, and they want to get away from those fast Kamikazes so even on a fail their best choice is to gun it and aim for sizable gaps in the cruiser line.  Once they pop through, I think they will be in torpedo range of their targets when they come out, and so when they turn to run for sea, they may as well launch.

[Desertfox]

If I can win this battle , I should have Kurosawa make a movie called "Revenge of the Kobayashi Maru".