Iberia 1910+

[maddox]

Reminds me of the Town class, but with a tad better gun layout.

I'll be honest, I didn't really look at the Town-class. I built off my preexisting Baleares and then looked to the County-class for a few ideas.

Great minds think alike?

[Darman]

Reminds me of the Town class, but with a tad better gun layout.

I'll be honest, I didn't really look at the Town-class. I built off my preexisting Baleares and then looked to the County-class for a few ideas.

Great minds think alike?

I always liked the County-class cruisers

[Darman]

Cyrenaica, Iberian Empire Battlecruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   23,951 t light; 25,268 t standard; 28,164 t normal; 30,482 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (613.52 ft / 613.52 ft) x 96.78 ft x (30.18 / 32.14 ft)
   (187.00 m / 187.00 m) x 29.50 m  x (9.20 / 9.80 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9.06" / 230 mm 45.0 cal guns - 374.40lbs / 169.83kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 45.0 cal guns - 374.40lbs / 169.83kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
     1 x Twin mount on sides, forward deck aft
     1 x Twin mount on sides, aft deck forward
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 400 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 600 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 600 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,172 lbs / 2,346 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   4.92" / 125 mm   214.70 ft / 65.44 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   27.69 ft / 8.44 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   9.06" / 230 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.38" / 35 mm
   5th:   1.18" / 30 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 100,340 shp / 74,853 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,214 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   1,086 - 1,413

Cost:
   £1.867 million / $7.467 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,082 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 6,667 tons, 23.7 %
      - Belts: 4,254 tons, 15.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 804 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 1,334 tons, 4.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 275 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 4,357 tons, 15.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,098 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,213 tons, 15.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 747 tons, 2.7 %
      - Hull above water: 287 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 260 tons
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,803 lbs / 19,415 Kg = 115.3 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.98

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.559
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  29.13 ft / 8.88 m,  25.85 ft / 7.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.71 ft / 6.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,440 Square feet or 3,850 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 985 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.35
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.40
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc Weight Distribution:
Torpedo Net: 187m =187t at Hull above water
Flag Facilities for 75 extra men: 300t (100 on deck, 100 above deck, 100 hull above water)
Fire Control (1905): 10% of armaments = 135t (75 above deck, 60 on deck)
Long Range Wireless: 25t above deck
Spare: 100t on deck

[Darman]

Cyrenaica, Iberian Empire Battlecruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   19,981 t light; 21,230 t standard; 24,800 t normal; 27,656 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (613.52 ft / 613.52 ft) x 96.78 ft x (30.18 / 32.75 ft)
   (187.00 m / 187.00 m) x 29.50 m  x (9.20 / 9.98 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9.06" / 230 mm 45.0 cal guns - 374.40lbs / 169.83kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 45.0 cal guns - 374.40lbs / 169.83kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
     1 x Twin mount on sides, forward deck aft
     1 x Twin mount on sides, aft deck forward
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 400 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 600 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 600 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
     6 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,172 lbs / 2,346 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   4.92" / 125 mm   214.70 ft / 65.44 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   398.79 ft / 121.55 m   27.69 ft / 8.44 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   9.06" / 230 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.38" / 35 mm      1.38" / 35 mm
   5th:   1.18" / 30 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89,845 shp / 67,024 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,426 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   987 - 1,284

Cost:
   £1.664 million / $6.656 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,082 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 6,626 tons, 26.7 %
      - Belts: 4,235 tons, 17.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 804 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 1,334 tons, 5.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 252 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,902 tons, 15.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,524 tons, 30.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,819 tons, 19.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 847 tons, 3.4 %
      - Hull above water: 287 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 360 tons
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37,140 lbs / 16,846 Kg = 100.0 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.484 / 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.34 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  29.13 ft / 8.88 m,  25.85 ft / 7.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m,  17.85 ft / 5.44 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.71 ft / 6.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 39,007 Square feet or 3,624 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight Distribution:
Torpedo Net: 187m =187t at Hull above water
Flag Facilities for 75 extra men: 300t (100 on deck, 100 above deck, 100 hull above water)
Fire Control (1905): 10% of armaments = 135t (75 above deck, 60 on deck)
Long Range Wireless: 25t above deck
Spare: 200t on deck

[The Rock Doctor]

The first needs more freeboard and could probably be upgunned or downsized.

The second has a really fine hull form for something 30 m wide and over 20,000 t displacement.

[Darman]

The first needs more freeboard and could probably be upgunned or downsized.

The second has a really fine hull form for something 30 m wide and over 20,000 t displacement.

I was attempting to copy Moltke and then realized I didn't have 280mm guns, I had 230mm.  So I figured I'd try it with those instead.  I posted the first edition before I remembered to trim her down a little...
Think she needs more freeboard aft?  I was trying to look at pictures of Moltke and judge it

[Kaiser Kirk]

The first needs more freeboard and could probably be upgunned or downsized.

The second has a really fine hull form for something 30 m wide and over 20,000 t displacement.

Oddly, I would have used to argue that as well.
Freidman has Molkte at 186m x 29.5 x 9.2  with a bc of 0.46... which I still have a hard time accepting.
The other end would be something like USS Pennsylvania at a bc of 0.656

As a conceptual matter - if you hold the length constant but expand the beam, and then taper aggressively, you wind up with a low BC on a big ship.
My guess /observation is that's what the German BCs did. They had small turrets for their size, so the beam near the forward turret did not need to be very broad, so they could taper fast.

With 230mm turrets this would seem to fit that.

Cyrenaica, Iberian Empire Battlecruiser laid down 1912


Armament:
      6 - 9.06" / 230 mm 45.0 cal guns - 374.40lbs / 169.83kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring

It's a very... interesting ship.
Are twin instead of two-gun turrets what you have for those?

And why are 2 of the 3 turrets superimposed? If you're going with Molkte, should it not be 1 of 3?

For me, it's too of an investment for hunting protected cruisers.

[eltf177]

Neither design has any deck armor at all... ???

[The Rock Doctor]

Neither design has any deck armor at all... ???

...ssssh...

[Darman]

Neither design has any deck armor at all... ???

I definitely missed that.  Although did add armor for an aft conning tower but SS always ignores that. 

[Desertfox]

Don't you have a 240mm gun and not a 230mm? You have a lot of tons in misc weight and bunkerage that could be reduced to save you some weight, also the belt is quite heavy for the guns you have, between those you could add deck armor and reduce the size a bit.

[Darman]

Don't you have a 240mm gun and not a 230mm? You have a lot of tons in misc weight and bunkerage that could be reduced to save you some weight, also the belt is quite heavy for the guns you have, between those you could add deck armor and reduce the size a bit.

....now i need to check my spreadsheet to see.  I've been repeating "230mm" in my head over and over again, maybe I was wrong this whole time.

[Jefgte]

....now i need to check my spreadsheet to see.  I've been repeating "230mm" in my head over and over again, maybe I was wrong this whole time.

On a 19 900 t hull you could install Iberian 12" turrets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Neptune_(1909)

[Darman]

I think I need to start wearing glasses when I work on spreadsheets..... its not 230/45 its 280/45. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

I think I need to start wearing glasses when I work on spreadsheets..... its not 230/45 its 280/45.

You're going to need a bigger boat. (for the same armor/speed).