Chinese Ship Designs

[Guinness]

Yeah I'm definitely following the German school of battlecruiser design.

[maddox]

I completely agree.  If you look at German losses during WO I. Only Lutzow was lost, and that after a beating that would have sunk the complete British Battlecruiser fleet.

Those German battlecruisers could take a beating and go on. Seydlitz as example. She came home after Jutland as a semi-submergible.

[Guinness]

The ships were tough, but I think the German officers and men deserve credit too. Their procedures were better than the Brits and their damage control teams were very effective.

[TacCovert4]

The ships were tough, but I think the German officers and men deserve credit too. Their procedures were better than the Brits and their damage control teams were very effective.

Their procedures were better than the BCF.  5th battle squadron and the grand fleet probably match them....and 5th battle squadron was possibly the best all round crews in both fleets.

[maddox]

Still, even the best trained crew can't save a ship with magazines open to any shell with some persuation power and trajectory to the magazine.

[TacCovert4]

Still, even the best trained crew can't save a ship with magazines open to any shell with some persuation power and trajectory to the magazine.

As drach would say, sudden existence failure....

[Jefgte]

Yeah I'm definitely following the German school of battlecruiser design.

I agree totally. Lutzow class was probably the best BC class built in the world.

[maddox]

Still, even the best trained crew can't save a ship with magazines open to any shell with some persuation power and trajectory to the magazine.

As drach would say, sudden existence failure....

All Hail Drachinifel....

[Desertfox]

The German battlecruisers were tough but the British ones were no slouches. The British BCs were betrayed by cordite, poor ammo handling practices, poor damage control, and poor shells/fuzes. They were quite capable of taking heavy amounts of damage and fighting on as seen by HMS Lion and HMS Tiger and several German BCs did have their magazines penetrated, saved only by great damage control. The Derfflingers where great ships, but I'll take a Splendid Cat or a Kongo over them any day of the year.

[TacCovert4]

Yeah I'm definitely following the German school of battlecruiser design.

I agree totally. Lutzow class was probably the best BC class built in the world.

I wouldn't go that far.  Derfflinger was an excellent BC for it's time.  Really Tiger was the best WW1 BC class all around.   Renown wasn't that good until the refit.

[Jefgte]

I wouldn't go that far.  Derfflinger was an excellent BC for it's time.  Really Tiger was the best WW1 BC class all around.   Renown wasn't that good until the refit.

The crew, the quality of the equipment and the organization of the fights make the difference.
The Derflinger had remarkable performances in combats ... not the Tiger.

We pollute the Guinness topic ...

[Guinness]

Ok, time to compare two draft designs. Which would you build? Note that I've assumed these limitations:

1. Overall length <= 200m (because of dock lengths)

2. Deep load draft <= 9m

The essential differences of the two designs below:

F: 27.2 knots, 28cm belt, 9cm deck. G: 28 knots, 24cm belt, 8cm deck (except aft, where it 7cm). They have the same armament. There are other minor detail differences.

To go over 28 knots I feel like I need a longer hull. Also note that the belts don't extend the full waterline on purpose. I'm following the German practice of leaving the last couple of frames' worth of hull at the stern unarmored.

Design 'F':

1912 BC, China Battlecruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,500 t light; 23,584 t standard; 25,477 t normal; 26,992 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (656.09 ft / 654.53 ft) x 91.86 ft x (28.25 / 29.54 ft)
   (199.98 m / 199.50 m) x 28.00 m  x (8.61 / 9.00 m)

Armament:
      8 - 12.20" / 310 mm 44.0 cal guns - 914.92lbs / 415.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck centre
      14 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 160 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      14 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.42lbs / 10.17kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 9,042 lbs / 4,101 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   349.41 ft / 106.50 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   300.20 ft / 91.50 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
     4.92 ft / 1.50 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   8.27" / 210 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.54" / 90 mm
   Forecastle: 3.54" / 90 mm  Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 27.21 kts
   Range 6,710nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,408 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   1,007 - 1,310

Cost:
   £2.015 million / $8.058 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,823 tons, 7.2 %
      - Guns: 1,823 tons, 7.2 %
   Armour: 8,679 tons, 34.1 %
      - Belts: 4,024 tons, 15.8 %
      - Armament: 1,808 tons, 7.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,641 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 206 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,474 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,973 tons, 31.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,977 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 552 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull below water: 182 tons
      - Hull above water: 244 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 63 tons
      - Above deck: 63 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35,558 lbs / 16,129 Kg = 39.1 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.525 / 0.532
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.92 ft / -1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   11.00 %,  25.59 ft / 7.80 m,  25.59 ft / 7.80 m
      - Forward deck:   13.00 %,  25.59 ft / 7.80 m,  25.59 ft / 7.80 m
      - Aft deck:   59.00 %,  17.72 ft / 5.40 m,  17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   17.00 %,  17.72 ft / 5.40 m,  17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.61 ft / 5.98 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 40,994 Square feet or 3,808 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:

45t: 4 50cm TT (1 bow, 1 stern, 1 on each beam) + 11 reloads all below water
194t: Torpedo nets (hull above water)
187t: FC (50t above deck, 137t hull below water)
100t: Flag facilities (50t on deck, 50t hull above water)
25t: Long range radio (12.5t above deck, 12.5t on deck)

Design 'G':

1912 BC, China Battlecruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,500 t light; 23,583 t standard; 25,473 t normal; 26,985 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (656.11 ft / 654.53 ft) x 93.50 ft x (28.25 / 29.53 ft)
   (199.98 m / 199.50 m) x 28.50 m  x (8.61 / 9.00 m)

Armament:
      8 - 12.20" / 310 mm 44.0 cal guns - 914.92lbs / 415.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck centre
      14 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 160 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      14 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.42lbs / 10.17kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 9,042 lbs / 4,101 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.45" / 240 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   303.48 ft / 92.50 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
     6.56 ft / 2.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   8.27" / 210 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.15" / 80 mm
   Forecastle: 3.15" / 80 mm  Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 28.05 kts
   Range 6,700nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,402 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   1,007 - 1,310

Cost:
   £2.075 million / $8.301 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,823 tons, 7.2 %
      - Guns: 1,823 tons, 7.2 %
   Armour: 8,089 tons, 31.8 %
      - Belts: 3,664 tons, 14.4 %
      - Armament: 1,823 tons, 7.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,396 tons, 9.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 206 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,908 tons, 15.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,128 tons, 31.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,973 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 552 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull below water: 182 tons
      - Hull above water: 244 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 63 tons
      - Above deck: 63 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,447 lbs / 15,171 Kg = 36.8 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.516 / 0.523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.92 ft / -1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   11.00 %,  25.92 ft / 7.90 m,  25.92 ft / 7.90 m
      - Forward deck:   12.00 %,  25.92 ft / 7.90 m,  25.92 ft / 7.90 m
      - Aft deck:   60.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   17.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.86 ft / 6.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,368 Square feet or 3,843 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 761 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weights:

45t: 4 50cm TT (1 bow, 1 stern, 1 on each beam) + 11 reloads all below water
194t: Torpedo nets (hull above water)
187t: FC (50t above deck, 137t hull below water)
100t: Flag facilities (50t on deck, 50t hull above water)
25t: Long range radio (12.5t above deck, 12.5t on deck)

[maddox]

That 0.79 kts, is it worth it?

[Guinness]

That 0.79 kts, is it worth it?

I'm leaning toward no, but that's why I was curious of other opinions. 28 knots is really pushing a 200m hull at this point. It's also the difference between more of a battlecruiser and a full-on fast battleship (all be it a little underarmed).

[eltf177]

I notice that both Designs F and G lack a torpedo bulkhead. Is this wise?