Chinese Ship Designs

Kaiser Kirk · April 19, 2020, 06:41:40 PM

This is a Request for Proposals.

Hopefully some give it a try.

I may need a Chinese Navy soon.
Chinese ships will have laydown dates of 1909, 1905, 1901, 1897 (refitted 1907).

Most of those I can 'borrow' or 'lightly adapt' from Player encyclopedias.

Snip's Tier design keeps Chinese Capital Ships from being Cutting Edge.

They need a 1909 BB and a 1909 BC or AC.
- 1903 Capital Ship tech : All Big Gun with Wing Turrets. The 1891 tech is also available.
- So... Twin or Single turrets, no superimposed main battery guns.
- Guns : 310mm/45, then downsize in steps of 40mm. (310, 270, 230, 190, 150, 110, 80, 40). Presume 50 caliber weight, 44 caliber length.
- Oil sprayed Coal. (90% coal, 10% oil)
- Ranges around 4800 short or 6600 long
- 1t per meter length for torpedo nets.
- 10t for extra searchlights.
- tonnage for fire control.

Kaiser Kirk · April 19, 2020, 08:48:08 PM

This is my try at an AC/BC.
Similar to AC/DC, but not, so don't be Thunderstruck... ooh BCs named after AC/DC songs..

Kept them a little on the light side as the inability to use superimposed mounts or triple turrets or guns over 310mm is a little confining.

Crouching Tiger, China Von der Taan BC laid down 1909

Displacement:
   18,243 t light; 19,197 t standard; 21,078 t normal; 22,582 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 78.74 ft x (27.07 / 28.68 ft)
   (170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 24.00 m x (8.25 / 8.74 m)

Armament:
8 - 10.63" / 270 mm 44.0 cal guns - 661.39lbs / 300.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck centre
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 44.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 44.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 6,702 lbs / 3,040 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.4" / 265 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   13.48 ft / 4.11 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   192.88 ft / 58.79 m   13.48 ft / 4.11 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   12.73 ft / 3.88 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.4" / 265 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 3.54" / 90 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.43" / 265 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 69,996 shp / 52,217 Kw = 26.36 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,384 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   874 - 1,137

Cost:
   £1.643 million / $6.570 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,300 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 7,018 tons, 33.3 %
     - Belts: 3,330 tons, 15.8 %
     - Armament: 1,561 tons, 7.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,955 tons, 9.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 172 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,465 tons, 16.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,888 tons, 27.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,835 tons, 13.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 571 tons, 2.7 %
     - Hull below water: 168 tons
     - Hull void weights: 100 tons
     - Hull above water: 48 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 155 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,570 lbs / 12,506 Kg = 45.9 x 10.6 " / 270 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 14.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.628 / 0.635
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m
     - Aft deck:   45.00 %, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m, 19.65 ft / 5.99 m
     - Average freeboard:      19.65 ft / 5.99 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,580 Square feet or 3,027 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 673 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Concept is that of Von Der Taan.
With Italian style little turrets like on Dante Alegheri.

With the 1903 tech, 'all big gun' is allowed, and (for China) wing turrets.
.

Decks are 2.44m high
Protective deck crowns at 1.11m, and descends to -1.33m.

60mm main deck, 30mm upperdeck.

Miscellaneous Weight :
168t - Torpedo nets
48t - Torpedo tubes above stern armor deck, 4TT each side(8), 3 sets 18 Torpedoes (24)

100t - Admiral's Quarters

25t - LR Radio
130t - Fire Control

Main belt covers from -2m BWL to +1m above protective deck.

Kaiser Kirk · April 19, 2020, 08:49:15 PM

This is based on the Italian Dante Alegheri, with it's Cuniberti turret arrangement...but twins, not triples.

Hidden Dragon, China Cuniberti DN laid down 1909

Displacement:
   18,975 t light; 20,095 t standard; 22,036 t normal; 23,589 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 85.30 ft x (26.25 / 27.79 ft)
   (170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 26.00 m x (8.00 / 8.47 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.20" / 310 mm 44.0 cal guns - 914.92lbs / 415.00kg shells, 115 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward evenly spread
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
14 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 16.54lbs / 7.50kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      14 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,962 lbs / 4,065 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   385.83 ft / 117.60 m   14.80 ft / 4.51 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   165.32 ft / 50.39 m   14.80 ft / 4.51 m
   Upper:   5.12" / 130 mm   385.83 ft / 117.60 m   9.91 ft / 3.02 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

- Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 3.74" / 95 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 39,993 shp / 29,835 Kw = 22.68 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,494 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   903 - 1,175

Cost:
   £1.699 million / $6.794 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,837 tons, 8.3 %
   Armour: 8,514 tons, 38.6 %
     - Belts: 4,286 tons, 19.4 %
     - Armament: 1,728 tons, 7.8 %
     - Armour Deck: 2,287 tons, 10.4 %
     - Conning Tower: 213 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,980 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,018 tons, 27.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,062 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 2.8 %
     - Hull below water: 168 tons
     - Hull void weights: 100 tons
     - Hull above water: 48 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 209 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,485 lbs / 14,735 Kg = 35.7 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.625 / 0.632
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   13.00 %, 21.62 ft / 6.59 m, 21.62 ft / 6.59 m
     - Forward deck:   17.00 %, 21.62 ft / 6.59 m, 21.62 ft / 6.59 m
     - Aft deck:   55.00 %, 13.62 ft / 4.15 m, 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 13.62 ft / 4.15 m, 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
     - Average freeboard:      16.02 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,197 Square feet or 3,270 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 712 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.36
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

based on Dante Alighieri, but while that ship was 19552 normal, this is 20969.

With the 1903 tech, 'all big gun' is allowed, and (for China) wing turrets.
Tier 1 are behind dreadnaught-wise, so the Italian triple turrets are dropped in favor of a larger bore.

The famed "Cuniberti" arrangement
Short forecastle is site of forward turret
Long aft deck is site of other 3 turrets.

The upper belt is 2 decks high for 33% of it's length and 1 deck for 67%.
For an average of 1.33 decks high (1.33x2.44 = 3.2452)
The lower 0.66m of this is coverd by the main belt, giving a height of 2.5852m
Main belt covers 0.66m above and below (2.22 to -1.54 : 3.76)
The upper 0.66

Upper Belt covers from +2.71 to 4.15. For 23.6% of it's length, it is two decks high, covering the forecastle under A turret. This works out as an average of 3.02m high for it's length.

Main belt covers from -1.8 to +2.71.
Protective deck crowns at 1.71m, and descends to -0.73m.
65mm protective deck, 30mm upperdeck.

Miscellaneous Weight :
168t - Torpedo nets
48t - Torpedo tubes above stern deck, 4TT each side(8), 3 sets 18 Torpedoes (24)

100t - Admiral's Quarters

25t - LR Radio
184t - Fire Control

Decks are 2.44m high, with 3.44m for Engineering and a 0.5m double anti-mine bottom.

+6.59 Forecastle
+4.15 Weather Deck - 30mm deck, top upper belt.
+2.71 Top Main Belt.
+1.71 Crown Protective Deck 65mm. Battery Deck
-0.73 Main Deck, bottom turtle back
-1.80 Bottom of Main belt.
-3.17 1st Deck
-6.61 Engineering Deck
-7.11 Bilges

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 11:26:23 AM

I always saw the Chinese as having a German-style fleet, let me see what I can come up with in terms of a Nassau-style dreadnought.

What are these "torpedo nets" ye speak off? There is no need for no stinkin torpedo nets! :D

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 12:08:16 PM

Very quick and dirty Nassau-type, with plenty of reserve weight available for changes, let me know what things she needs.

Crouching Tiger, China Dreadnought laid down 1909

Displacement:
   17,016 t light; 18,127 t standard; 18,984 t normal; 19,670 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (480.00 ft / 480.00 ft) x 88.00 ft x (28.60 / 29.41 ft)
   (146.30 m / 146.30 m) x 26.82 m x (8.72 / 8.97 m)

Armament:
12 - 10.63" / 270 mm 45.0 cal guns - 605.68lbs / 274.73kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 15.76lbs / 7.15kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 8,767 lbs / 3,976 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   288.00 ft / 87.78 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   192.00 ft / 58.52 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   288.00 ft / 87.78 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 16.00" / 406 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 23,096 ihp / 17,229 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 4,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,543 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   808 - 1,051

Cost:
   £1.592 million / $6.370 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,560 tons, 8.2 %
     - Guns: 1,560 tons, 8.2 %
   Armour: 6,116 tons, 32.2 %
     - Belts: 2,675 tons, 14.1 %
     - Armament: 1,722 tons, 9.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,473 tons, 7.8 %
     - Conning Tower: 245 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 1,759 tons, 9.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,181 tons, 37.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,967 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.1 %
     - Hull below water: 100 tons
     - Hull above water: 100 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,147 lbs / 11,406 Kg = 41.9 x 10.6 " / 270 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     - Average freeboard:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,479 Square feet or 2,739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 939 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.20
      - Longitudinal: 2.49
      - Overall: 1.29
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 01:38:01 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on April 20, 2020, 11:26:23 AM
I always saw the Chinese as having a German-style fleet, let me see what I can come up with in terms of a Nassau-style dreadnought.

What are these "torpedo nets" ye speak off? There is no need for no stinkin torpedo nets! :D

As I measure it, it's ~2000nm to go across the China Sea in most places. That coincides with historical trade interests, "sphere of influence" and where there is a Chinese mercantile minority they might be concerned about. So the lower range gives room to go out, do something and back. Shorter limits what they can do.

The longer range is basically from Busan down the island chains and up to Saigon. A reasonable steaming distance for their cruisers and acceptable in other warships. Longer they really don't need.

I will probably be burgling from Vilnus for Coast Defense/Monitors as well.

As for the Anti-torpedo nets,

They are the historical anti-torpedo devices installed on most ships up to 1916, and continued in use on some vessels through WWII.
It's something my Parthian ships have before they start having torpedo bulkheads, but rummaging encyclopedias I find few others bothered with.

In Setup, Snip made the ruling that they cost 1 ton per meter of ship length. I recently did some calculations and that's probably substantially overstating the case. But it's the ruling. Perhaps the nets are even heavier than historic.
I've rummaged around, ships could steam at least at 6knots, and likely more, with them deployed. Wiki *now* has a nice article indicating they had even less restrictions- and finally spar pole weights.

However, considering here the Russo-Japanese war over Port Arthur would have been a Golden Horde-Chinese war... and so they certainly saw them work when the Chinese torpedo boats made their night attack.

Since Snip's design calls for the Chinese to start a bit behind in Capital ship tech, they can't have TDS yet, so the torpedo nets would be the choice.

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 01:54:49 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on April 20, 2020, 11:26:23 AM
I always saw the Chinese as having a German-style fleet, let me see what I can come up with in terms of a Nassau-style dreadnought.

It's a pretty nice Quick and Dirty.
A little slow to be mounting the lighter gun.

It's looking like I may need to scratch build a 1905 BB for them, in which a Nassau-style was an option.

Right now the only thing looking 'right' is the Iberian Almirande Oquendo of 18,712 tons...but that's more of a BC and 1906. I bet with 270mm weapons and 1905 engines it would work, and it's got 600t set aside for misc weight, but only 300t specified, so it can fit the torpedo nets.

The Crouching Tiger I posted is a German-style, inspired by Von Der Taan - one of my favorite ships :)
For Hidden Dragon, I was looking for alternatives to superimposed, and remembered the Italian/Russian ships. If I can't fit more turrets, or have more guns/turret, then speed/armor or shinking the vessel become options... I should really explore a 21 knot.. how small/heavy armor?

For Older ves

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 02:16:17 PM

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on April 20, 2020, 01:54:49 PM
For Hidden Dragon, I was looking for alternatives to superimposed, and remembered the Italian/Russian ships. If I can't fit more turrets, or have more guns/turret, then speed/armor or shinking the vessel become options... I should really explore a 21 knot.. how small/heavy armor?

Really not much gained for the loss of 3 knots. 700 tons lighter +5mm upper/lower belts. 0.601 BC
The key is the length / seakeeping. A shorter tubbier ship with 1.20 seakeeping could probably save more weight, or fiddling with the forecastle/upper belt could get 1.50 at 20knts.
But basically the hull speed is 23.48knots, so as long as it's not beyond that the power demands aren't spiking, which is where you get most of the savings from going slower.
Actually has always seemed two steps - one at hull speed and one at 3knots past.

So.. fiddling with the hull, got speed down to 21knots, tonnage down to 16,200, and boosted the armor belts.
It's really quite a decent little ship.

Sadly, I admit that I made a deck height calculator that I use for main belt height, upper belt etc.

Golden Dragon, China Cuniberti DN laid down 1909

Displacement:
   16,198 t light; 17,257 t standard; 18,966 t normal; 20,332 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (459.32 ft / 452.76 ft) x 85.30 ft x (27.07 / 28.71 ft)
   (140.00 m / 138.00 m) x 26.00 m x (8.25 / 8.75 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.20" / 310 mm 44.0 cal guns - 914.92lbs / 415.00kg shells, 115 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck centre
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
14 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 16.54lbs / 7.50kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      14 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 8,962 lbs / 4,065 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.8" / 325 mm   325.98 ft / 99.36 m   13.91 ft / 4.24 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   126.74 ft / 38.63 m   13.91 ft / 4.24 m
   Upper:   5.51" / 140 mm   325.98 ft / 99.36 m   9.91 ft / 3.02 m
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

- Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      12.8" / 325 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   5.51" / 140 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 3.74" / 95 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,633 shp / 22,106 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 6,400nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,075 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   807 - 1,050

Cost:
   £1.530 million / $6.118 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,837 tons, 9.7 %
   Armour: 7,423 tons, 39.1 %
     - Belts: 3,600 tons, 19.0 %
     - Armament: 1,734 tons, 9.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,896 tons, 10.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 193 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,467 tons, 7.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,875 tons, 25.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,768 tons, 14.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 595 tons, 3.1 %
     - Hull below water: 138 tons
     - Hull void weights: 100 tons
     - Hull above water: 48 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
     - Above deck: 209 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,956 lbs / 12,680 Kg = 30.8 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.635 / 0.642
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   13.00 %, 24.02 ft / 7.32 m, 22.38 ft / 6.82 m
     - Forward deck:   17.00 %, 20.73 ft / 6.32 m, 20.73 ft / 6.32 m
     - Aft deck:   55.00 %, 12.73 ft / 3.88 m, 12.73 ft / 3.88 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.73 ft / 3.88 m, 12.73 ft / 3.88 m
     - Average freeboard:      15.43 ft / 4.70 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,180 Square feet or 2,711 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

With the 1903 tech, 'all big gun' is allowed, and (for China) wing turrets.
Tier 1 are behind dreadnaught-wise, so the Italian triple turrets are dropped in favor of a larger bore.

The famed "Cuniberti" arrangement
Short forecastle is site of forward turret
Long aft deck is site of other 3 turrets.

The upper belt is 2 decks high for 33% of it's length and 1 deck for 67%.
For an average of 1.33 decks high (1.33x2.44 = 3.2452)
The lower 0.66m of this is coverd by the main belt, giving a height of 2.5852m
Main belt covers 0.66m above and below (2.22 to -1.54 : 3.76)
The upper 0.66

Upper Belt covers from +2.71 to 4.15. For 23.6% of it's length, it is two decks high, covering the forecastle under A turret. This works out as an average of 3.02m high for it's length.

Main belt covers from -1.8 to +2.44
Protective deck crowns at 1.71m, and descends to - 1.0m.
65mm protective deck, 30mm upperdeck.

Miscellaneous Weight :
138t - Torpedo nets
48t - Torpedo tubes above stern deck, 4TT each side(8), 3 sets 18 Torpedoes (24)

100t - Admiral's Quarters

25t - LR Radio
184t - Fire Control

Decks are 2.44m high, with 3.44m for Engineering and a 1.0m double anti-mine bottom.

+8.72 Forecastle
+6.28 Weather Deck - 30mm deck, top upper belt.
+2.40 Top Main Belt.
+3.88 Crown Protective Deck 65mm. Battery Deck
-1.44 Main Deck, bottom turtle back
-1.80 Bottom of Main belt.
-3.44 1st Deck
-6.88 Engineering Deck
-7.38 Bilges

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 02:26:26 PM

QuoteHowever, considering here the Russo-Japanese war over Port Arthur would have been a Golden Horde-Chinese war... and so they certainly saw them work when the Chinese torpedo boats made their night attack.

Would Port Arthur have happened at all? China would have been a lot stronger especially after winning the Sino-Japanese War, and weren't we talking about Kholmsk in Sakhalin Island taking over instead of Port Arthur?

VdT definitely fits the German mold, although I would question why China would go for a full battlecruiser, maybe something closer to Blucher?

The Battle of Yalu River would have been won by the big heavily armored German style PDs (Brandenburgs), maybe something in that vein?

BTW You called both ships hidden Dragon.

Quote
For Hidden Dragon, I was looking for alternatives to superimposed, and remembered the Italian/Russian ships. If I can't fit more turrets, or have more guns/turret, then speed/armor or shinking the vessel become options... I should really explore a 21 knot.. how small/heavy armor?

Shrinking is always an option especially if you need numbers as well to cover a very long coast.

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 02:44:00 PM

QuoteI may need a Chinese Navy soon.
Chinese ships will have laydown dates of 1909, 1905, 1901, 1897 (refitted 1907).

My battleships are 1908, 1904, 1899, 1894...

Shouldn't the oldest ones be 1890-1896? Pre-compound engines?

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 03:00:24 PM

I am making a list of 1893 ships. Not sure I'll use it.

For NPCs stuff like refits/refurbishments is a little difficult to track.
I suppose it could be handwaved, but you wind up with things like FC/QF/Engine upgrades, etc.

So, overall I'm thinking the >20 year ships got scrapped. Or are laid up in reserve/otherwise irrelevant.

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 03:08:51 PM

I did have to spend 25% of my starting tonnage on those old ships, I would hope so do the Chinese even if they are irrelevant (only 75% available for newer stuff).

I kind of hand-waived the Japanese refits, the only one I think actually has a major impact is the FC one, especially if not bothering with the pre-1896 ships (QF guns). A simple way to deal with engine upgrades is to assume a flat 50% cost, its not exact but gets you in the ballpark.

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 03:17:17 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on April 20, 2020, 02:26:26 PM

The Battle of Yalu River would have been won by the big heavily armored German style PDs (Brandenburgs), maybe something in that vein?

Probably.

But unless some player made a German-style PD about 1893,
then someone would have to design it from scratch, post it for review, and then it could be used.
which is work.

Otherwise I'm looking at the Roman Emperor Hadrian, the Norst Baldr, and the Iberian Blas de Lezo.

So ...we don't know that detail.. the Chinese had ships...they won... details to follow if necessary.

Quote
I did have to spend 25% of my starting tonnage on those old ships, I would hope so do the Chinese even if they are irrelevant (only 75% available for newer stuff).

I kind of hand-waived the Japanese refits, the only one I think actually has a major impact is the FC one, especially if not bothering with the pre-1896 ships (QF guns). A simple way to deal with engine upgrades is to assume a flat 50% cost, its not exact but gets you in the ballpark.

That is a reasonable point.
I'm kinda looking big picture/longer term how does one do this in the future,
but if there is a confrontation, you probably deserve the Chinese to have some 1893'ers.

That's an example of why I post these long wordy things, so the players have a chance to the Mod he's missing something obvious.

...I may just hand wave the refits and decree they have torpedo nets and fire control and QFs...

Kaiser Kirk · April 20, 2020, 03:20:20 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on April 20, 2020, 12:08:16 PM
Very quick and dirty Nassau-type, with plenty of reserve weight available for changes, let me know what things she needs.

Crouching Tiger, China Dreadnought laid down 1909

Displacement:
17,016 t light; 18,127 t standard; 18,984 t normal; 19,670 t full load

I see miscellaneous weight.. I was expecting you'd specify some as "electro-magnetic shell attractors" or underwater "liquid access holes"....

Desertfox · April 20, 2020, 03:25:20 PM

Well demolition charges and lead armor plates take up a lot of misc weight! :D I was planning to add some negative misc weight for pro-torpedo nets, but it was very quick and dirty so I forgot...