Japanese Ship Designs 1912+

Kaiser Kirk · May 08, 2020, 08:59:13 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on May 08, 2020, 06:05:52 PM
But shouldn't we be seeking those edges?

All I'm trying to say is that if something is significant enough to invoke the "at risk of moderator-inflicted incidents" rule, its should be significant enough to be stated in the Ship Design Guidelines. Specifically so the mod has less work to do. At the end of the day we all use SS3 (with all its problems) and the same rules and guidelines, so whether our ships are historical or not, we are all on the same playing field, and as long as a SS3 design meets all the rules and guidelines, it shouldn't be unfairly penalized. Otherwise, we will all end up with Clevelands.

Fox,
Finding the edge is exactly what you are doing.
building a 2000-3000t ship with 2T2 8" turrets is seeking the edge.

The edges are fuzzy, if you cloned Thonburi, since it's a proven design... you'd be safe.
You are choosing to go past them.
I explained the problem and the risks.
You can build it.
There were ships built with glaring faults that had to turn around and go back to dock for refit.
You have that choice.

As for encoding everything - No, the decision to NOT do that, to strip the rules N3-N6 rules down and KISS, rely on the Mod to make calls
That was part of the core setup pregame and subject to much discussion.
We made a big adjustment, mainly focused on the colonial expansion. We may tinker with wording or improve some things, but we're not reinventing N7.
Call it KISS, I've call it Snip-O-Vision, and I've stated long ago that I like things more complex, , but when I signed up to play, I was also agreeing to the KISS concept and that Snip got final say.

Now, if Snip thinks I'm going off course, his job is to call my attention to the issue. Which is kinda what he did with the Cruiser turret issue.
Likewise, if the players as a group think I'm off course, let me know.
IF a bunch of you say 'hey, we don't want oversight on the ships...or something else...ok I'll stop doing that part. Less work for me.

But when I say 'hey considering these variables, this is how it is'... and inform you of a decision...
if I missed an important variable - bring it up, show me what I missed. For example, if I pointed at HMS York and said 'that's the smallest 8" cruiser... then point at Thomburi and say what about that.
But if there isn't some glaring flaw, I kinda expect buy off instead of a long discussion every time.

Desertfox · May 10, 2020, 01:50:01 AM

Perhaps an expansion of the "Ship Design Guidelines" with a "Best Practices" section? I believe its with keeping to the KISS principle. Take L:B ratio, I can quickly reference the Guidelines section and figure out if my ship is good before even posting it, then once posted anyone can easily cross reference it to the Guidelines. Otherwise, with a grey area like minimum beam for a specific turret, I have to go and do research and you have to go and do research and it ends up being a longer and more complex discussion. The L:B guideline doesn't actually prevent anyone from building a ship with say a 13:1 ratio but does say bad things can happen if you do, while say an 11.5:1 should not have anything happen to it.

What I'm trying to say, is that anything that has a "moderator-inflicted" possibility, should be documented somewhere easily accessible, that way when designing a ship one can go thru a checklist and make sure its good even before its posted.

Desertfox · May 10, 2020, 11:56:10 AM

Quote250 t for extra supplies seems like a dilution of the ship's ability. Use it for combat capabilities and build a small depot ship to go with it, I'd say.

Yes it does impact its combat capabilities, but I believe its a worthwhile trade-off. The ship's main job is two-fold, intimidate locals in far away places, and be a deterrent in far away places. If it ends up in combat its already failed at its main job. So the ability to be at far away places with minimal support is more important than its actual combat capabilities. Hence, why armor is on the light side.

Desertfox · May 11, 2020, 10:21:19 AM

Reducing the deck armor, dropping the extra boats, and slightly reducing range, gets the hull strength up to 1.00 on a 49ft beam. The Out-of-port Resupply costs a total of 330t of overall tonnage, design comes out to 2,080t without it (while keeping hull strength at 1.0).

Surabaya, Japan Colonial Gunboat laid down 1913

Displacement:
   2,410 t light; 2,585 t standard; 2,827 t normal; 3,021 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (11.00 / 11.59 ft)
   (103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 14.94 m x (3.35 / 3.53 m)

Armament:
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,366 lbs / 619 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.00" / 102 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,976 shp / 5,950 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 436 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   193 - 252

Cost:
   £0.268 million / $1.071 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 290 tons, 10.2 %
     - Guns: 290 tons, 10.2 %
   Armour: 401 tons, 14.2 %
     - Belts: 176 tons, 6.2 %
     - Armament: 92 tons, 3.3 %
     - Armour Deck: 116 tons, 4.1 %
     - Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 340 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,083 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 417 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 296 tons, 10.5 %
     - Hull below water: 241 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 10 tons
     - Above deck: 45 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,822 lbs / 1,734 Kg = 14.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   50.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Aft deck:   5.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,519 Square feet or 1,070 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 402 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

30t - FC
25t - LR Wireless
10t - 4 x 18" TT
241t - Out-of-port Resupply

Desertfox · May 11, 2020, 01:46:54 PM

War experience, very cheap, dedicated scout and picket boat. Designed with a high cruise speed, its primary mission is to use an observation balloon, since the Chinese being able to use Jeju Island as an observation post has been a significant problem. Initially was going to use a Sakura class destroyer as the base, but the 50% machinery rule was causing issues, so instead its based on the Uji class gunboats. The 90mm guns are supposed to be signal rocket mortar/launchers in case of radio failure.

Kaibokan, Japan Scout laid down 1913

Displacement:
   705 t light; 730 t standard; 839 t normal; 926 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (270.00 ft / 270.00 ft) x 30.00 ft x (7.40 / 7.97 ft)
   (82.30 m / 82.30 m) x 9.14 m x (2.26 / 2.43 m)

Armament:
1 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal gun - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 120 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1913 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1913 Model
     1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 20.0 cal guns - 19.94lbs / 9.04kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 115 lbs / 52 kg

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,054 shp / 6,008 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 2,900nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 196 tons

Complement:
   77 - 101

Cost:
   £0.080 million / $0.320 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.9 %
     - Guns: 16 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.3 %
     - Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 316 tons, 37.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 306 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 134 tons, 16.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 7.7 %
     - Hull below water: 20 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 30 tons
     - Above deck: 15 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     688 lbs / 312 Kg = 11.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.502
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   35.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Aft deck:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.70 ft / 3.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,348 Square feet or 497 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 183 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.84
      - Longitudinal: 1.54
      - Overall: 0.90
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

15t - 1905 FC & Experimental Radar
25t - LR wireless
25t - Observation balloon equipment

Desertfox · May 13, 2020, 05:10:51 PM

The first true dreadnought of the Japanese Navy and the first of the 8-8 plan. Two planned Kawachi, Settsu. Uses the Tosa-class layout.

Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913

Displacement:
   17,997 t light; 19,198 t standard; 20,616 t normal; 21,750 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
   (175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)

Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     5 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,138 lbs / 4,598 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   310.00 ft / 94.49 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
      1.00" / 25 mm   310.00 ft / 94.49 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 45,645 shp / 34,051 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,553 tons

Complement:
   859 - 1,118

Cost:
   £1.922 million / $7.688 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,793 tons, 8.7 %
     - Guns: 1,793 tons, 8.7 %
   Armour: 6,643 tons, 32.2 %
     - Belts: 2,339 tons, 11.3 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 161 tons, 0.8 %
     - Armament: 2,302 tons, 11.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,583 tons, 7.7 %
     - Conning Towers: 259 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 1,789 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,342 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,619 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 430 tons, 2.1 %
     - On freeboard deck: 150 tons
     - Above deck: 280 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,791 lbs / 13,966 Kg = 35.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   50.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Aft deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      20.80 ft / 6.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,415 Square feet or 3,104 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.84
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

180t for 1908 FC
100t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
150t spare

snip · May 13, 2020, 06:49:39 PM

You cannot use the Strengthened Structural Bulkhead option for creating the TDS. It does not correctly factor into composite strenght. Additional Bulkheads need to be used regardless of the intended form of the TDS. I'm 99% sure this is written in the formal rules somewhere, and if it is not that is a error on my part when writing the rules and should have been there from Day 0.

That aside, its a tight little design. Not a fan of the armor layout. I'd personally question the use of a full length deck without the corresponding belts. Especially with the short citadel that cannot serve as a raft-body. All deck-mount secondaries feels a little advanced, tho Japan probably has the best first-hand experience with how casemated secondaries do against smaller targets. I would argue for having some the guns in hull casemates, but would personally be ok with a majority in deck mounts.

Kaiser Kirk · May 13, 2020, 07:23:42 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 05:10:51 PM
Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
   (175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
      1.00" / 25 mm   310.00 ft / 94.49 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

A couple of interesting observations.
your 3" guns have a 1" armor shield, but your 5" guns have none.

You have multiple armor decks, but you don't mention in the notes what they are.

You have a 1" thick TDS set 2m from the hull.
Honestly, that may stop a 16" torpedo, it probably won't an 18' and will accomplish little against a 21" torpedo.
The 25" is thin, and the space insufficient.

The TDS also only rises 4.27m from the bottom.
Since the draft is 8.71m,
that leaves nearly 4.5m of space between the top of the TDS and the waterline.
That is not an effective design.

The Strengthened Bulkhead and the Admonition not to use SS3 for torpedoes were both prior Snip Mod - decrees.
They are not written down, but are commonly understood by those of us from the beginning.
It is part of why I misunderstood the role of Mod in ship design review.
If necessary I will write them into the Design guidelines so they can be enforced.

Desertfox · May 13, 2020, 09:03:23 PM

Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height. As far as the TDS I am of the opinion that less is more, thick bulkheads are probably too rigid, and torpedoes are likely to defeat most TDS systems, so its better to mitigate the damage that to try to stop it. So some of that spare misc weight will go to improved damage control.

The secondaries armor is actually correct, I started with the Satsuma's SS3 file, which had the 10" secondaries, so the 5" guns are actually the teritiaries. But the whole secondaries layout needs some work, since I'll need space for 3" single mounts since I don't actually have a twin mount, so most 5" guns will go in casements.

Desertfox · May 14, 2020, 09:59:07 AM

Better?

Kawachi class, Japan Battleship laid down 1913

Displacement:
   17,990 t light; 19,198 t standard; 20,616 t normal; 21,750 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (574.23 ft / 570.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (27.40 / 28.59 ft)
   (175.03 m / 173.74 m) x 25.60 m x (8.35 / 8.71 m)

Armament:
10 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     5 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 10,138 lbs / 4,598 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.00" / 25 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.00 ft / 19.51 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm     -           -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 45,645 shp / 34,051 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,700nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,553 tons

Complement:
   859 - 1,118

Cost:
   £1.922 million / $7.687 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,799 tons, 8.7 %
     - Guns: 1,799 tons, 8.7 %
   Armour: 6,460 tons, 31.3 %
     - Belts: 2,680 tons, 13.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 329 tons, 1.6 %
     - Armament: 2,238 tons, 10.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,019 tons, 4.9 %
     - Conning Tower: 194 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,789 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,412 tons, 36.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,626 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 530 tons, 2.6 %
     - Hull below water: 200 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 50 tons
     - Above deck: 280 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,767 lbs / 13,502 Kg = 34.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   50.00 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Aft deck:   15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
     - Average freeboard:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,415 Square feet or 3,104 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

180t for 1908 FC
100t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
50t Spare
200t for Enhanced Damage Control

Desertfox · May 14, 2020, 10:21:48 AM

And a pair of battlecruisers to go with it (Kongo layout), Maya and Chokai.

Maya class, Japan Battlecruiser laid down 1913

Displacement:
   15,994 t light; 16,994 t standard; 18,697 t normal; 20,060 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (594.76 ft / 590.00 ft) x 79.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.51 ft)
   (181.28 m / 179.83 m) x 24.08 m x (8.23 / 8.69 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 871.37lbs / 395.24kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 140 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,990 lbs / 3,624 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.00" / 25 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm     -           -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 65,912 shp / 49,170 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 7,400nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,066 tons

Complement:
   799 - 1,039

Cost:
   £1.768 million / $7.073 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,418 tons, 7.6 %
     - Guns: 1,418 tons, 7.6 %
   Armour: 4,710 tons, 25.2 %
     - Belts: 2,163 tons, 11.6 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 364 tons, 1.9 %
     - Armament: 1,415 tons, 7.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 631 tons, 3.4 %
     - Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,583 tons, 13.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,013 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,704 tons, 14.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 270 tons, 1.4 %
     - Hull below water: 50 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 70 tons
     - Above deck: 150 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,464 lbs / 11,097 Kg = 28.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.528
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.47 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   50.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Aft deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Average freeboard:      21.40 ft / 6.52 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,631 Square feet or 2,939 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 768 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.80
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

150t for 1908 FC
50t for Long-range wireless and flagship facilities
70t for Enhanced Damage Control

Kaiser Kirk · May 14, 2020, 12:27:59 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 09:03:23 PM
Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height. As far as the TDS I am of the opinion that less is more, thick bulkheads are probably too rigid, and torpedoes are likely to defeat most TDS systems, so its better to mitigate the damage that to try to stop it. So some of that spare misc weight will go to improved damage control.

So this comes under - you get to do what you want.

The $ spend on the research for the tech would include such things as a caisson to do TDS testing.
Your naval engineers will inform you that research shows A TDS with proper stand off distance, and a thick enough elastic armor bulkhead will successfully confine the damage to the TDS system.
The exact distance and proper thickness of the bulkhead and any internal bulkheads would be subject to some debate.
Part of the job of the armored bulkhead was also to stop hull material turned into shards and projected at high speeds from punching holes.

Now, If I'm going to be stuck evaluating how these things do in combat,
I will be taking that above knowledge and factoring in what OTL engineers felt would work:

Breyer's depictions of ships show :

The French are weird - invented the idea, used two 19mm plates back to back, then dropped the concept, then had a little 8mm holding bulkhead on Bretagne, and I've found differenct reports on Normandie, from full TDS, to none, and I suspect a very narrow one from the beam. As a never-completed, there's not as much info.

The Germans uses a single thickness 40mm bulkhead.
The Brits went for a 38mm/1.5" and then 2" bulkhead.

Tosa actually went for 3x25mm back-to-back, so you'd get the elasticity of 25mm, but the toughness of 3.
Which is probably more effective than Yamamoto's which was single piece and too stiff.

The US with Texas was using a 38mm/1.5" , but in the later designs went to Liquid/void compartments separated by 19mm. Then went to having the final one "in" being the thicker armored bulkhead.

Kaiser Kirk · May 14, 2020, 12:35:34 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on May 13, 2020, 09:03:23 PM
Those should be easy to fix. Dropping the ends deck armor should help with the TDS height.

So I'm planning on laying out and running the Cheju-Do phase IV battle today or tomorrow.
The only thing I've done is I decided I should role that 2% chance of hit for the shot's Hidden Dragon is taking prior to being 'in range'.
Got a hit.
On the belt. Rolled for where- end or citadel.
Location wound up being stern end belt, lower edge. That was the only undamaged area of Fuji. The critical tore away the steering gear.
So, the IJN may in 1913 consider raft body flotation (full length belts) and if leaving the ends unprotected from even lighter damage is desirable.

Which way they decide on that - Fuji was barely afloat anyhow- is up to you. But I thought I should provide the information if you're working on capital ships.

Desertfox · May 14, 2020, 05:02:54 PM

By full length do you mean "100% of normal length" or the whole length of the hull? Unfortunately the Fuji is just too old and damaged against a modern opponent to really pull lessons from her.

Just a cheap minesweeper that can also lay mines if needed.

No 1, Japan Minesweeper laid down 1913

Displacement:
   150 t light; 154 t standard; 174 t normal; 190 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (140.00 ft / 140.00 ft) x 24.00 ft x (3.70 / 3.95 ft)
   (42.67 m / 42.67 m) x 7.32 m x (1.13 / 1.20 m)

Armament:
2 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm     -           -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, plus batteries,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 495 ihp / 369 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 36 tons

Complement:
   23 - 31

Cost:
   £0.010 million / $0.039 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 1.0 %
     - Guns: 2 tons, 1.0 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 3.0 %
     - Armament: 4 tons, 2.6 %
     - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 23 tons, 13.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 71 tons, 40.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 24 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 28.2 %
     - Hull below water: 4 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 45 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     624 lbs / 283 Kg = 156.1 x 2.0 " / 51 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.501
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m, 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     - Aft deck:   20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m, 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     - Average freeboard:      5.80 ft / 1.77 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,219 Square feet or 206 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 165 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

25t - Minesweeping gear
20t - Minelaying gear
4t - Electric drive

Kaiser Kirk · May 14, 2020, 05:39:13 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on May 14, 2020, 05:02:54 PM
By full length do you mean "100% of normal length" or the whole length of the hull? Unfortunately the Fuji is just too old and damaged against a modern opponent to really pull lessons from her.

The default length for the main belt is covering the fore deck and aft deck in your freeboard tab.
As you move those %, the default length covered by your deck and main belt changes.

SS comes with the Forecastle at 20% and stern at 15%, leaving 65% for the fore/aft decks.
That's the "raft body" concept, if you keep that citadel length unflooded, the ship will float even with the areas beyond it flooded.
Go shorter, and take too much damage to the unarmored ends, and you can loose the ship even if the citadel hasn't been flooded.

Armor decks vs. protective decks help a little, as they are usually higher on the hull, and so more of what is called "reserve buoyancy", and less risk of free flooding over the deck if the ship is low.
On the other hand you loose the protective armor slope behind your belt....which you then don't need to guard vs plunging shells...ack I'm getting off the topic.