Japanese Ship Designs 1912+

[The Rock Doctor]

Given how the 1910 and 1915 techs are written, I have to think the 1910 has floatplane and flying-off decks with no combat utility, while the 1915 tech has floatplanes and fly-off decks that do have combat utility.

Otherwise, I'm not really sure what would be in a 1910 ship if it can't operate floatplanes or a flying off deck.

[Jefgte]

Only reconnaissance to signal enemy ships a little beyond the horizon (+ - 40 km).
No firing guidance.
Very difficult to recover floatplane, impossible if the sea is rough (the pilot is picked up).

[TacCovert4]

Only reconnaissance to signal enemy ships a little beyond the horizon (+ - 40 km).
No firing guidance.
Very difficult to recover floatplane, impossible if the sea is rough (the pilot is picked up).

They're still figuring out the whole "10kts, hard to starboard" to create a spot of flat calm for the plane to land on?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Innovative, I think we are close to the time for some ship-mounted aircraft experiments.

Kirk, how will ships using the 1910 Aircraft/Seaplane Carrier be handled? Are they trials-only ships or might they have some value in combat?

1) I keep saying, if folks want me to look at a ship thread, send me a PM.

2) Looking at ship threads is a "idle time" thing for me and I may not wander by for weeks. I certainly DO NOT look at every turn, or every ship thread.

3) I've said repeatedly that if you have what is believed to be a questionable design, it's best to point out, because it would be awkward to find out in a war.

4) The tech dates seem to be picked based on historical events about 2 years (i.e. earliest development) later.
Googling 'floatplane 1912"..or something like that got me Wiki's "1912 in Aviation"
and this :

27 May – The world's first seaplane carrier, the French Navy's Foudre, embarks her first floatplane,[16] a Canard Voisin.

Though the quote is misleading, it was a seaplane tender, a converted torpedo boat tender.

So...that's what the tech is probably indicating.
The floatplanes would be a reconnaisance only bird, very short range, probably 30-40knts normal, 50knts maximum...subtract the windspeed if into the wind...and only flyable in very light weather - if the sea has any chop, they are in trouble.  Likewise radios were not carried until ~1916/17, so passing information is by flags/dropped notes/landing and relaying.

Reading the seaplane tender page :

On May 1, 1912, the Navy Ministry purchased several more seaplanes, a monoplane Breguet with a single float, a Nieuport with double float, and a converted Farman biplane.
Canard Voisin seaplane under trial in August 1911.

Experiments at sea started with the Foudre in July 1912 during tactical exercises in the Mediterranean. The Canard Voisin, and a new foldable Nieuport were used. During the exercises, in which a wargame simulated the fight of two rival navies, the use of the Nieuport allowed the discovery of a surprise attack by the "adversary". During the summer of 1912 many flights of the Canard Voisin from the Foudre were accomplished in the bay of Saint-Raphaël.

By the middle of 1913, the navy had 11 seaplane pilots. The Foudre was again used in large-scale naval exercises. One of its planes, a Nieuport used for observations, foiled a "surprise attack" by a group of warships. Five more seaplanes were ordered following these exercises.

So ...capable in the right conditions.

Other fun 1912 events :

8 June

    The Italian dirigibles P2 and P3 discover and make a highly effective bombing attack against Ottoman Army cavalry during the Italo-Turkish War's Battle of Zanzur, making an important contribution to the Italian Army's victory in the battle.[10]
    The first annual Aerial Derby takes place, sponsored by the Daily Mail. Seven participants flying a single circuit of an 81-mile (130-kilometer) course, starting and finishing at Hendon Aerodrome in London, with control points at Kempton Park, Esher, Purley, and Purfleet. A crowd of 45,000 spectators pays to see the start and finish, and large numbers of people watch the race along its route. Thomas Sopwith wins in a Bleriot XI-2 with a time of 1 hour 23 minutes 8.4 seconds, winning £250 and a gold cup.

10 June – The Austro-Hungarian submarine U-5 tows a kite balloon, apparently to determine the best coloration for submarines to avoid detection while underwater. Other than the experimental use of incendiary balloons from SMS Vulcano to bombard Venice in 1849 by its predecessor the Austrian Navy, it is the only operation of an observation balloon by the Austro-Hungarian Navy.[22]
19 June – The Royal Flying Corps's Central Flying School opens at Upavon, Wiltshire.
27 June – Following successes using aircraft against the Turks in North Africa, Italy forms a specialised Air Battalion (Battagliore Aviatori).

[Desertfox]

Drawing of the Wakayima compared to the Yodo and the other Japanese scout cruisers.

[snip]

The flying off deck feels to advanced given that flying off decks are explicitly called out as a 1915 tech item.

[Desertfox]

How can you experiment without a flying off deck of some sort? The first aircraft to take-off from a ship was in 1910 from the USS Birmingham, which is the ship I based the flying-off deck from. Thats what I assume a 1910 tech ship looks like. I assume the 1915 tech would be closer to either Furious or the fly-off platforms mounted on several battleships around this time:

[snip]

So just to make sure I'm crystal clear, my questions/comments are with the drawing, not with the inclusion of 1910 air facilities.

Based on what I can find of Birmingham's setup, the deck should have a rather pronounced slope to it, and you likely need more clearance between the end of the deck and the water.

[Desertfox]

Different ships, different dimensions. If the capabilities are the same does it really matter that much?

[Desertfox]

A need has been found for close-in gunfire support for ground troops. The PC Chitose also sank in shallow enough water, where her main armament can be recovered. Japan is planning to build a couple of gunboats using her two main guns (cut down to 35cal) on a Toph Maru hull. Note the armor belt is an armored box providing splinter protection for the magazine.

Chitose, Japan Gun Boat laid down 1914

Displacement:
   400 t light; 436 t standard; 466 t normal; 490 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 27.00 ft x (5.70 / 5.93 ft)
   (60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.23 m  x (1.74 / 1.81 m)

Armament:
      1 - 8.00" / 203 mm 35.0 cal gun - 258.01lbs / 117.03kg shells, 170 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck and hoist mount, 1896 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      3 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1914 Model
     1 x Triple mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      Weight of broadside 270 lbs / 123 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm     20.00 ft / 6.10 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 15 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,663 shp / 1,241 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 55 tons

Complement:
   49 - 65

Cost:
   £0.052 million / $0.210 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 51 tons, 10.9 %
      - Guns: 51 tons, 10.9 %
   Armour: 14 tons, 3.1 %
      - Belts: 9 tons, 1.8 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 64 tons, 13.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 250 tons, 53.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 66 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 21 tons, 4.5 %
      - Hull below water: 16 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 5 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     738 lbs / 335 Kg = 2.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.536
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.41 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   40.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m
      - Aft deck:   15.00 %,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m,  7.20 ft / 2.19 m
      - Average freeboard:      7.65 ft / 2.33 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,699 Square feet or 344 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 54 lbs/sq ft or 264 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.10
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

5t - FC
16t - Electric Drive

[snip]

Why not just use the box protection for Mags under the deck armor options?

[TacCovert4]

I'd agree with that.  Also, 25mm is pretty light.  Itll stop very light splinters but not much else.   I'd want 40mm to give you at least the solid chance of stopping 75mm to 100mm he shells.

[Kaiser Kirk]

using her two main guns (cut down to 35cal) on a Toph Maru hull.

A) Cut down?  Under which clause of the gun research rules?

B) The Japanese naval artillery list does not have any 8" M&H, much less an 8/35 single M&H.

C) 'on a Toph Maru' ...do you mean you are building a fresh vessel with the same dimensions as the Toph Maru hull, but with military scantlings?
Or that you are planning to convert an auxiliary to a warship?

[Desertfox]

I hadn't realized that was an option. This ship isn't supposed to see direct combat, so the armor is only supposed to help against 75mm field gun and 50mm naval gun (MTBs) splinters and light arms fire.

Are we not allowed to cut down guns? I'm literally taking an old gun and making it worse, while also making it unsuitable for naval combat.

It would be a new hull, the dimensions are almost the same but not quite. Its just quicker and cheaper to use an existing design (and drawing) that to design one from scratch.

[Kaiser Kirk]

if you're fielding a gun, you need to do it through the gun research rules.
Same with mountings.

Now, I pointed you to them because there is a reasonable answer in them, but I should not be the one doing the legwork.