Iberian Navy Proposed Vessels

[Darman]

I am going to be including many designs that are seriously flawed because it has been several years since I last submitted any designs and I've lost some of my "feel" for how to fix things and make a design workable. 

I'm also going to be stealing designs that Desertfox and Guiness posted for Iberia. I just wanted to collect them in one thread for safekeeping.

[Darman]

Based on the actual Spanish Navy Destructor torpedo gunboat, it was an early version of a torpedo boat destroyer. 

Destructor, Iberia Torpedo Gunboat laid down 1890

Displacement:
   805 t light; 827 t standard; 934 t normal; 1,020 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (200.00 ft / 200.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.74 ft)
   (60.96 m / 60.96 m) x 8.53 m  x (3.05 / 3.27 m)

Armament:
      1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1890 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 5.70lbs / 2.58kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1890 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
      Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,062 ihp / 3,777 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 193 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   83 - 109

Cost:
   £0.104 million / $0.415 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 527 tons, 56.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 28.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 129 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 0.3 %
      - Hull above water: 3 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     390 lbs / 177 Kg = 17.5 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.84
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 8.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.584 / 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.28 ft / 4.66 m,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m,  9.72 ft / 2.96 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.16 ft / 3.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,035 Square feet or 375 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 195 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 2.44
      - Overall: 0.95
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Misc Weight:
3t for 2 14" torpedo tubes w/ one torpedo each

[Darman]

Devastation, Iberia Battleship laid down 1895

Displacement:
   12,964 t light; 13,580 t standard; 15,007 t normal; 16,149 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (442.91 ft / 442.91 ft) x 72.18 ft x (26.25 / 27.92 ft)
   (135.00 m / 135.00 m) x 22.00 m  x (8.00 / 8.51 m)

Armament:
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1,105.37lbs / 501.39kg shells, 75 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      18 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 5.42lbs / 2.46kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     18 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,558 lbs / 2,521 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.9" / 430 mm   287.89 ft / 87.75 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   13.0" / 330 mm   154.99 ft / 47.24 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   6.69" / 170 mm   287.89 ft / 87.75 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.51" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 3.94" / 100 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,928 ihp / 6,661 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,569 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.014 million / $4.056 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 793 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 5,946 tons, 39.6 %
      - Belts: 3,629 tons, 24.2 %
      - Armament: 460 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,677 tons, 11.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 181 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,653 tons, 11.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,447 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,043 tons, 13.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.8 %
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons
      - Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,577 lbs / 12,509 Kg = 23.0 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 14.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 99 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.98

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.626 / 0.633
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.95 ft / 6.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,954 Square feet or 2,225 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 651 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.36
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc. Weight
25t above deck
50t on deck
50t hull above water

[Jefgte]

IMO, Devastation is a 1885-90 design not a 1895 & completely obsolete in 1910.
decrease 340 to 305
decrease belt armor
increase speed to 18kts (20 or 21 is better)

Jef  ;)

[Darman]

In retrospect, my enthusiastic approach to entirely re-doing Iberia may have overcome the realities of needing to catch up.  I'm going to post a few of Olekit's Iberian Navy vessels from pre-1895 and see if they pass muster.  I'm not going to re-sim them unless there are issues.  That way I can follow in DF's path and concentrate on the more modern (and larger) vessels initially. 

[Darman]

This design seems a little large for a torpedo boat. 

Castor-class, Iberia Torpedoboat laid down 1894

Displacement:
   120 t light; 123 t standard; 128 t normal; 133 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (139,76 ft / 137,80 ft) x 12,96 ft x (6,20 / 6,35 ft)
   (42,60 m / 42,00 m) x 3,95 m  x (1,89 / 1,93 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal gun - 5,71lbs / 2,59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1894 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline forward
      2 - 0,28" / 7,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,01lbs / 0,00kg shells, 550 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1 506 ihp / 1 123 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 450nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 10 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   18 - 24

Cost:
   £0,015 million / $0,060 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0,8%
      - Guns: 1 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 75 tons, 58,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 31 tons, 24,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9 tons, 6,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 13 tons, 10,1%
      - Hull above water: 10 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 3 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22 lbs / 10 Kg = 4,0 x 2,2 " / 57 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 0,3 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,406 / 0,411
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,33 ft / 0,10 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30,00%,  7,22 ft / 2,20 m,  8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m
      - Aft deck:   25,00%,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m,  4,76 ft / 1,45 m
      - Average freeboard:      5,67 ft / 1,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 55,5%
   Waterplane Area: 1 103 Square feet or 102 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 22%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 13 lbs/sq ft or 65 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,55
      - Longitudinal: 1,92
      - Overall: 0,62
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Distribution 13 tons
----3t 2x450mm Torpedos
----3t Additional Torpedo
----2t Additional Pumps
----5t Flag facilities

[Darman]

I'm questioning the seemingly constant addition of misc weight "flag facilities" in torpedo boats.  5t light displacement is probably about 5 cubic meters of space, roughly speaking, that is about the size of a closet.  and not even a walk-in closet

Polux, Iberia Torpedoboat laid down 1897

Displacement:
   182 t light; 187 t standard; 201 t normal; 213 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (188,98 ft / 187,01 ft) x 14,27 ft x (6,20 / 6,45 ft)
   (57,60 m / 57,00 m) x 4,35 m  x (1,89 / 1,97 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal gun - 5,70lbs / 2,58kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1897 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline forward
      2 - 0,28" / 7,2 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,01lbs / 0,01kg shells, 550 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1897 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 6 lbs / 3 kg

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2 497 ihp / 1 863 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 1 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 27 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   26 - 34

Cost:
   £0,023 million / $0,092 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0,5%
      - Guns: 1 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 117 tons, 57,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 46 tons, 23,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 19 tons, 9,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 8,9%
      - Hull above water: 10 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 8 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34 lbs / 16 Kg = 6,1 x 2,2 " / 57 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,04
   Metacentric height 0,3 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 11,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 91 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,426 / 0,434
   Length to Beam Ratio: 13,10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,33 ft / 0,10 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30,00%,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m,  10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m
      - Aft deck:   25,00%,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m,  5,25 ft / 1,60 m
      - Average freeboard:      6,75 ft / 2,06 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 193,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64,3%
   Waterplane Area: 1 671 Square feet or 155 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 24%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 13 lbs/sq ft or 62 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 1,37
      - Overall: 0,56
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Distribution 18 tons
----3t 2x450mm Torpedos
----3t Additional Torpedo
----2t Additional Pumps
----10t Flag facilities

[Kaiser Kirk]

Jefgte is correct, the battleship has a number of problems.

1. I Like Big Guns, Hun.

First, the 1895 guns seem to be modeled after Royal Sovereign - 13.5"/30
Here, guns can start more powerfully.

Under Rules->Research, 1st Post down is the crosswalk for Bore/Caliber.
For 1880 guns, <14"/360mm is Dark Green, or 35caliber.
So those can be 340mm/35ca.

Trivia : Under the Muzzle Energy part of the rules, when first available, it is frequently best to only build guns in the bottom of the possible bore range for that caliber - Example, a 16/40 will have very poor performance compared to a 15/40 or 14.1/40.

Under Rules -> Technology 
There are 1880, 1895, 1900, 1905 etc techs.
The BIG improvements are in s 1895 and 1900.

Oh, but they are 1895 guns ! not 1880 you say !
Um,

One of the more confusing bits is Gun development.
One of the difficulties with the tech rules is that First you are allowed to research the gun tech, then you spend 2 years doing so, then you are allowed to develop the gun for 2 years...
So :
1895 you're allowed to research the gun.
1895-96 do research
1897-98 develop new gun
1899 Lay down ship with 1895 Gun Techs...and 1897 other techs.

So your 1895 gun was developed 1893-94, and was an 1880 tech.

Anyhow, I'm ok with the Bore size, but would suggest /35, or just wait until 1899 for this ship and field a better gun and QF secondary.

[/u]2. Gun Layout. [/u]
You did what I did on one of my predreds and forgot to say the turrets were "Twin Mount".
The reason they had casements in this period is they were light, and put a high MV, flat shooting gun near the water, that way they could shoot straight at the torpedo boat, with a large danger space.  Right now you have 4 guns below deck behind 170mm armor with 75mm faces, and then 6 guns in the unarmored superstructure with 75mm faces.
Also, since they are an 1880 tech, they correctly do not have QF toggled on, but that means they are very very slow firing 150mm guns for anti-torpedo boat work.
The 57mm guns are your main Anti-TB battery then, but they are a little lacking by 1895.

3. Armor
430mm Belt Armor !
Finally, someone fielded a ship with more belt armor than my Gilgamesh...if only by 10mm.
The difference is the Gilgamesh was designed just pre-fire control for vs. her own 345/40 gun at 3,000m.  40% more muzzle energy on the same bore - that's a massively more powerful weapon.
So, you have lovely belt armor, but it really doesn't need to be that thick to work.
During the wrought iron period, sometimes it got up there, but we're in Harvey steel and Krupp by this time, much more effective.

100mm Deck Armor !
Everyone seems to do this for some reason, that's a WWII thickness meant to stop large caliber long range shots and impervious to aircraft bombs.
At this point in time, the ranges are so short everything is flat. A relatively thin deck works, but then the threat is a detonation sending splinters through it.
IF you're going with 1 deck layer, 40-50mm is good, though my dreadnaughts use 65mm due to larger & more powerful shells and splinters. That should be proof against anything up to 16".
It's also going to stop shells under about 18,000m, which is also about the point you loose sight of the enemy hull and can't range by shell splashes well.
So you see a number of mine with a 25-30mm upper deck and a 40-65mm lower deck.

Unfortunately NavWeaps seems to be down, or you can see how pathetic deck penetration really was 3-12,000m.

Slimming the two above will free up alot of tonnage. You can then either make a smaller BB, or a faster one. If you wait until 1899 for the guns, you also get the 1897 engine tech with compound.

4. torpedoes
The 13.5"/30 was mounted on 3 different classes- 2 British, 1 Italian.
They, like most predreads, had underwater torpedo tubes. Which basically were worthless, and a flooding risk, but very common.  Up to the player on that.


Hope I don't scare you away, *trying* to be helpful.

[Kaiser Kirk]

In retrospect, my enthusiastic approach to entirely re-doing Iberia may have overcome the realities of needing to catch up.  I'm going to post a few of Olekit's Iberian Navy vessels from pre-1895 and see if they pass muster.  I'm not going to re-sim them unless there are issues.  That way I can follow in DF's path and concentrate on the more modern (and larger) vessels initially.

Hmm, kinda low on time. I'll try to check in tomorrow.

[Darman]

One of the more confusing bits is Gun development.
One of the difficulties with the tech rules is that First you are allowed to research the gun tech, then you spend 2 years doing so, then you are allowed to develop the gun for 2 years...
So :
1895 you're allowed to research the gun.
1895-96 do research
1897-98 develop new gun
1899 Lay down ship with 1895 Gun Techs...and 1897 other techs.......

You are absolutely correct, I forgot all about gun tech research, and then gun research.  I haven't even made a list of what I have available in a given year.  I also more or less took an old design from when I was the UK (Kworld? or N3? or idk which other iteration of Navalism it was) and re-posted it. 

Anyhow, I'm ok with the Bore size, but would suggest /35, or just wait until 1899 for this ship and field a better gun and QF secondary.

I may do this.  I always liked the theory of the Devastation: a few large slow-firing guns to smash an opponent apart at close ranges. 

The reason they had casements in this period is they were light, and put a high MV, flat shooting gun near the water, that way they could shoot straight at the torpedo boat, with a large danger space.  Right now you have 4 guns below deck behind 170mm armor with 75mm faces, and then 6 guns in the unarmored superstructure with 75mm faces.
Also, since they are an 1880 tech, they correctly do not have QF toggled on, but that means they are very very slow firing 150mm guns for anti-torpedo boat work.
The 57mm guns are your main Anti-TB battery then, but they are a little lacking by 1895.

All of this should have been self-evidentary to me even when I initially designed her a couple years ago and it didnt.  Especially the bit about the casemates: why would I have my guns behind an unarmored part of the hull, especially when they aren't firing on a flat trajectory. Heck, even smoothbore cannon firing solid-shot would be positioned to skip their shot along the water (or ground) for maximum effect. 

100mm Deck Armor !
Everyone seems to do this for some reason, that's a WWII thickness meant to stop large caliber long range shots and impervious to aircraft bombs.
At this point in time, the ranges are so short everything is flat. A relatively thin deck works, but then the threat is a detonation sending splinters through it.

You know when you repeat something often enough that you forget what it actually means? That is me in this case.  I spent all summer explaining to people that prior to WW1 naval combat occurred at such close ranges that warships didnt have any significant amount of deck armor, which is why coastal defense mortars could be so effective despite their short range.  and yet I've forgotten to implement that knowledge in my warship designs from that time period. 

Hope I don't scare you away, *trying* to be helpful.

You aren't going to scare me away that easily! I've handled criticism from most of you before and I know from experience that its 99% constructive criticism, which is appreciated.  Especially as I try to get back into the swing of things.  I do remember that I had my own personal checklist of simple things to double-check before posting a design, but I'll be damned if I can recall exactly what they are: guess I'll have to relearn them! :)

[Darman]

She has the ubiquitous "flag facilities" add-on.  She also has slightly more than a thousand mile range, so a 500nm radius of action without taking into account combat maneuvering.  For a gunboat.... I view them as something that should be able to be sent to colonial possessions.  As a torpedo boat flotilla leader she would require less range and higher speeds.  There is also a large discrepancy between her main armament (120mm) and secondary armament (25mm).  For her size and presumed role (as a flotilla leader or as a screening vessel) I'd rather have  more than two mounts, but a smaller caliber on each mount.  the pom-pom (25mm)mounts are useful in a colonial gunboat role.  But probably not so much against equivalent-sized opponents. 

Temerario, Iberia Gunboat laid down 1889 (Engine 1890)

Displacement:
   607 t light; 629 t standard; 667 t normal; 698 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (200,13 ft / 190,29 ft) x 22,08 ft x (11,68 / 12,07 ft)
   (61,00 m / 58,00 m) x 6,73 m  x (3,56 / 3,68 m)

Armament:
      2 - 4,72" / 120 mm 40,0 cal guns - 50,53lbs / 22,92kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,49lbs / 0,22kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1889 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 102 lbs / 46 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1 822 ihp / 1 359 Kw = 16,60 kts
   Range 1 100nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 69 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   65 - 85

Cost:
   £0,069 million / $0,275 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 2,4%
      - Guns: 16 tons, 2,4%
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,7%
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 308 tons, 46,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 258 tons, 38,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 60 tons, 9,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,0%
      - Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     338 lbs / 153 Kg = 6,5 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
   Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 11,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,476 / 0,482
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13,79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -6,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00%,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Average freeboard:      12,14 ft / 3,70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 159,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97,5%
   Waterplane Area: 2 740 Square feet or 255 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 182 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,79
      - Longitudinal: 8,47
      - Overall: 1,00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Distribution 20 tons
----10t Long Range Wireless
----10t Flag facilities

[Darman]

Theoretically modernized in the late 1890s, hence some discrepancies on the armament dates. 
Why such a short range? Maybe dropping the cruising speed to 8kts for the fleet (during the 1890s) wouldnt be a bad idea, and might give me a longer range. 
She also has a ram bow, and I'm not sure that would be efficient on a cruiser weighing in at under 1200t. 

Infanta Isabel, Spain Cruiser laid down 1889 (Engine 1890)

Displacement:
   1 147 t light; 1 211 t standard; 1 330 t normal; 1 426 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (223,10 ft / 209,97 ft) x 32,71 ft x (13,78 / 14,55 ft)
   (68,00 m / 64,00 m) x 9,97 m  x (4,20 / 4,43 m)

Armament:
      2 - 5,98" / 152 mm 40,0 cal guns - 102,69lbs / 46,58kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 4,72" / 120 mm 40,0 cal guns - 50,53lbs / 22,92kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 40,0 cal guns - 5,42lbs / 2,46kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 440 lbs / 200 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 3 684 ihp / 2 748 Kw = 17,80 kts
   Range 2 400nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 215 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   109 - 143

Cost:
   £0,144 million / $0,577 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 68 tons, 5,1%
      - Guns: 68 tons, 5,1%
   Armour: 15 tons, 1,2%
      - Armament: 15 tons, 1,2%
   Machinery: 610 tons, 45,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 425 tons, 31,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 183 tons, 13,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 2,3%
      - Hull above water: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     658 lbs / 298 Kg = 6,2 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,52
   Metacentric height 1,9 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,492 / 0,500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,0%
   Waterplane Area: 4 361 Square feet or 405 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 55 lbs/sq ft or 267 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,83
      - Longitudinal: 5,31
      - Overall: 1,00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Distribution 30 tons
----25t Long Range Wireless
----5t Flag facilities

[Kaiser Kirk]

>

> This design seems a little large for a torpedo boat. 

It's the 20knt speed that does it.
Your Comp hull is 0.62 and your cross-sectional is 0.55, so you have a little room to trim.

Still, it's really not out of range for historical torpedo boats.

450nm is a long way for a tiny craft. Design choice. 45 of steaming.
I've actually started working out extra fuel to sustain high speed combat and keep cruising range on some vessels, like my Nighthunter.

For a vessel this size, a reload torpedo is not worth the space.
Can you imagine a cramped little vessel, with 5ft of freeboard, trying to wrestle a 6m long half tonne object around?
That's why fishermen lead the dangerous jobs category.
Well, most years. In a bad year Loggers beat them out.

Then there's the 'additional pumps' 2t.
Your vessel has a survivability of 22lbs.
Anything that hits it will deal a big chunk of the damage.  A single 57mm won't get it, but that's why in the late 1890s you start seeing 3-4" guns.


The comparable 1894 Parthian Mk III Torpedo boats  are half the size
and 2.4 knots slower.

Going Rules ->Ship design guidelines-> down to the end,

you can work out the sprint/trial speed.
For yours Trial Speed: 25.82
For a Parthian Mk III : trial speed 23.6

So you can see a real benefit for the doubled size.

I'm questioning the seemingly constant addition of misc weight "flag facilities" in torpedo boats.  5t light displacement is probably about 5 cubic meters of space, roughly speaking, that is about the size of a closet.  and not even a walk-in closet

I don't know who has flag facilities in their torpedo boats beyond the Iberians. Why a ranking officer would want a cabin, or need a seperate command & control facility for the squadron on board each ship is beyond me.
5tons is however bigger than a closet.
Troops:  1 t per four troops for short-ranged landing craft.  2 t per troop for long-term (> 1 day) embarkment.
So it's two dorm rooms. Or one state room.
On a torpedo boat... with a 1.45m aft freeboard.
Those Iberian Admirals are Crazy.

Casements

I should qualify that there were reasons underdeck casements went away. Once folks started having to patrol in rough weather, they found they shipped some water if too close to the sea, or too near the bow wave. Though I think the US clipper bows made that more of an issue for them.  As time went on torpedo and engagement ranges increased, Casements don't offer the elevation to engage at long range.  Lastly, ships severely battle damaged theoretically could ship extra water through casements in severe lists...but by that time they often had lots of holes anyhow. Deck guns with shields were used with casements, mainly over the casements to beef up end-on fire. Later the casementguns migrated up to the deck gun area.

Temerario : She has the ubiquitous "flag facilities" add-on.  She also has slightly more than a thousand mile range, so a 500nm radius of action without taking into account combat maneuvering.  For a gunboat.... I view them as something that should be able to be sent to colonial possessions.  As a torpedo boat flotilla leader she would require less range and higher speeds.  There is also a large discrepancy between her main armament (120mm) and secondary armament (25mm).

"ubiquitous "flag facilities"  Huh. Unless I miss something only my building Tiamat class SDNs have flag facilities...though I could swear I had them on another class too.  Anyhow, I have way more torpedo net installations than Admiral's quarters.
As for the balance of range and speed.
Remember that ..for some reason...until 1910 we really didn't have colonies.
Now, you may have had ships on station for commerce protection, but that is a bit of a different role.

25mm gun : probably should be 37mm. At this point we're in the "not in the rules, but if it historically existed" where I get my twin barreled Gardner hand cranked MGs.
You are using the equivalent of ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_1-pounder_pom-pom

Gun Date : Need to be 1899.  QF is 1895, start designing 1897, available 1899.  It's a refit.

I'd really suggest quickly making a standard list of the gun sizes you plan on using, so you can keep consistent ship to ship :)
...though I still wound up with too many bore/calibre combos.

Engines...should be 1897 as well if complex compound.

For my tastes, I might provide some light armor plating for rifle fire from insurgents.
As a tender, it has no weight set aside for tending, no torpedo reloads, no spare room except flag quarters.
Also, if it's going to be on distant station, you might want more accomodation room.
The Parthian gunboat Dolphin is larger, but has room for some marines, a motor launch and a brig.
I have more ships with brigs and marines than flag facilities by alot.

All depends on how you envision it being used.

Theoretically modernized in the late 1890s, hence some discrepancies on the armament dates.
Why such a short range? Maybe dropping the cruising speed to 8kts for the fleet (during the 1890s) wouldnt be a bad idea, and might give me a longer range.
She also has a ram bow, and I'm not sure that would be efficient on a cruiser weighing in at under 1200t.

Infanta Isabel, Spain Cruiser laid down 1889 (Engine 1890)

...but ram bows are awesome looking.
The 2400nm gives you 240 hours of steaming at 10knots, or 10days out and back.
That is a little short, and leaves no margin for combat operations.
The question is...what's it for?

Heavily armed.
No armor.
Slow..actually slower than the 1890 Byzantine Battleships...and the Roman. .
Short ranged.

Coast Guard?


I didn't make any cruisers this small, so didn't look at historical parallels.
Seems like the Royal Navy Pearl Class is the analogy.
Same period, twice the size, 19knts, 8x 120mm.


Same problem on the QF guns. Obviously refits.

[Jefgte]

Same remark as Kaiser;
In general, I find your ships inefficient and very little usable in 1910.
Be more impactful on arming, speed and range.
Define coastal or oceanic vessels.

Just my opinion

[Kaiser Kirk]

Jefgte has some good advice. A bit of mission clarity will help define what they are built for.

Iberia has an Atlantic coast,
a Med sea.
and probably trade to Africa and the Americas.

I suspect that you're working with the early part of the Iberian prebuild fleet, so the 1890-1895 dates.
Personally, I found that era of ship very hard to make something that could be vaguely worth keeping in my order of battle by 1910.
I expect most of the Parthian Navy in that time has since been scrapped.

The 1899 series, with the compound engines and the QF guns- those are still of some worth.

But for the 1894 shisp....I have the oddballs left.
I have my cruiser / torpedo boat tender. Large and fast, it still does a role later ships can't.   You could make some scout cruisers already converted to flotilla leaders.
I have a couple now worthless scout cruisers....my error. Really too small and inherently slow to really convert to something useful. I may scrap them, or rebuild as slow colonial station ships.
I have some old armored cruisers. For their time, they were terrifically fast, long range and so and large- my expeditionary ships. . Since it's free prebuild, that was a reasonable use of funds- plus fit with my vision.
I also designed and built a series of tenders to support overseas stations. Their guns, armor and engines are irrelevant, so the tonnage is still useful.
And I have my armored sailing...yes sailing frigates. Which do something none of my other vessels do- go anywhere and not worry about fuel.
Oh, and a couple gunboats, and coast defense ships.

NONE are main fleet units except the scouts. All do a role in my navy.

Hopefully that actually makes some sense, and helps you forge the path forward :)

Let us know how we can baffle and confuse help you forward.