The Way Forward

[Jefgte]

...I am using a 'atlas of global geography' from about WWII which has a pictoral representation of food and resources as a baseline....

Excellent to define colonial ressources... & later, profits.
...But, it's an avantage for you  :)

...3) Allow a core of 8-12 provinces claimed to be 'kept'. I like this one, as Jefgte's Madagascar story can stand, my Kandy & Zanziabar stories can stand, etc. Player chooses which.
Not sure if we'd rebid the rest from there or just go from 1912...

We continue on 1912H1
(General Prems, winner of Bekatra, Battle & Manahoro Battle & responsible of the Salehi Massacre did not died, on TGB49, for nothing...)

[The Rock Doctor]

I think any system that formalizes colonial expansion or value has to recognize that the our current map already incorporates some degree of "value-assessment" through the relative sizing of provinces in different parts of the world.  Adding additional layers to that might really distort things.

Logistically, any system that ties expansion or logistics to province numbers implies that the easiest way to gain the largest colonized area is to grab the largest on-map provinces, which happen to be, in many cases, the harshest and least productive terrain in actual practical terms.  Compare the huge areas of northern Canada/Greenland or the Sahara belt with similar expanses in Europe and the eastern seaboard of the US, for example.  Logistically, it is far simpler to colonize the entirety of Virginia or Florida than to colonize a single province in Greenland or the Sahara; the geography's just that wildly different.

So let's not overcomplicate the colonial process here - particularly when our economics/resource system are so vague to begin with.

On the whole, I would prefer minimal amounts of re-do on colonial claims. 

I would not mind an opportunity to rejig the BP/IC top-ups that we all selected in the pre-game process.  I think this is not the first time I've tried to front-load the BP, only to find out in-game that it's kind of impossible to actually make use of it all.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks for the input

- without someone making the map and so knowing where the resource points are, the next would be to make them random, which could wind up with some non-sensical results.
- The resource map makes some logical sense. You are more likely to find resource points in real-life mountain ranges, while 'harsh' resources ...well if you settle like the Kalahari desert you may find one.

For my part, my expansion to date has mainly be driven by strategic points, maritime routes, arable land with some resources (Tarakan oil) tossed in. I rather expect to replicate that.

Rocky observed correctly, that as long as any one province is basically the same as any other, there really isn't any reason not to grab one big block somewhere, and there is plenty of land.  Big widely separated interior regions do not present reasonable causes for naval development.  Or natural storyline conflicts. 

- The province size issue is one I've pointed out to Snip. After consideration, he felt that we are a bit stuck with the map we have, so we have to find a way to work with it.

- Province sizes on the map do seem loosely linked to population density, with the Rio de Janerio province being tiny compared to some of the artic ones.

- the fact the very large provinces are often mountainous, desert, tiaga, swamp, dense jungle winds up - In the draft province map- being 'poor' for development is meant to highlight reality. The goal is to have that Map be generally available when picking colonies.

- The fact that some already claimed provinces would then change for better or worse is why there is discussion on how best to roll that out.  Snip's last post indicated that he thought we should be talking to the bigger group on that topic- which is one reason I'm putting this stuff out here.

...the other is so there wasn't a week of silence and folks wondering what is going on.

-I think Snip, and for that matter myself, are trying to make sure the changes are things that are easy to incorporate and understand. 
I do not want to overcomplicate the process either. Further, we want to make the mod part simple and once.

I think the current view is to use the original rules of defining the colonial region. That's a simple map thing.  Players would have the province type map.
Except the starting point would need to be an anchorage- those are actually fairly common.
Mods would then provide the player with the ...whatever snip is trying to do with the regions(1)... and resource points.
That just goes in the budget spreadsheet - some redesign of the province section- and you don't fiddle with it after that.

From the player POV, minimal additional work.
And hopefully with the Mod/Assistant model, no delay waiting on us.
That's the goal.

(1)That part is unfortunately something he was still really working on when he got busy, so I can't be very clear as to the final vision.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I would not mind an opportunity to rejig the BP/IC top-ups that we all selected in the pre-game process.  I think this is not the first time I've tried to front-load the BP, only to find out in-game that it's kind of impossible to actually make use of it all.

I will admit to being a little puzzled by that statement.
I am using all my BP. Jefgte is using all of his. Snips last report ran a $8 and 6bp surplus, while Walter was 0/0 left.

As far as I can tell, you're simply choosing to invest more heavily in IC than in warships.
Which does not cause any problems for you because of Snip's ruling of no early wars, and the other ruling that you can save up a large amount of BP from one year to another.

In the long run, your economic focus will allow the more rapid development of your colonies, giving you more ability to suddenly take that surplus BP and build new ships with the latest technology.  As a game strategy abandoning ship construction for the first 4-6 game years is probably the best "move".

As a player, I happen to disagree with both rulings. 
The first I get from the need for game play not to get bogged down (and it did anyhow).  We are allowed to tussle over colonies, but fighting Jefgte over Madagascar would have involved battles in the Red Sea, and land would quickly follow. I suppose I could have taken the River Platte from Vilnus, but that 'one province is roughly the same as others' aspect kicked in.
Absent actual threat, I think we should at least roll play that there is a threat, after all we're building these navies for some reason.   

The second ruling, I really can't see how you can store surplus production capacity...especially as changing tech rules means engines/armorplate/shells/guns/fire control tables...all become outdated swiftly.  There's not much alloy/machined parts that could really be made and stored indefinitely for the future.

However, I accept I won't like all the rules and rulings :)

[Jefgte]

Invest in the colonies (IC and / or BP), OK, but colonies will have to pay off one day ... otherwise, where is the interest.
=>There is a calculation method to define.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Invest in the colonies (IC and / or BP), OK, but colonies will have to pay off one day ... otherwise, where is the interest.
=>There is a calculation method to define.

They will pay off rather rapidly.
I did this exercise pregame, and just redid it, so unless I am making a basic error with Excel...
If you invest $5 / HY every half year, you will make only +13 Colonial IC by 1930...not that many.
If you invest the money from your colonial IC back into MORE colonial IC, you could have built +61 Colonial IC by 1930.
I suspect we will have less as we will divert some to building more BP or army units or other things.

Now if you do as Rocky is doing and put $15 a Half year, you could wind up with +182 IC by 1930.
There is that 2 IC/Province thing, so he will need to claim more.

[Jefgte]

... 1930 for a return on investment, it's too long ...
5 to 10 years of investments. (2$ & 2BP per year)
5 to 10 years to 0 (investments = profits)
after, profits ...

Investments / profits must be adjusted according to the size of the colonies.
Madagascar must bring in much more than the Cocos Islands or a port in Shark Bay
Defining a coef for the different sizes of colonies is essential. Your 1945 Atlas seems a good basis for calculation.

[The Rock Doctor]

I would not mind an opportunity to rejig the BP/IC top-ups that we all selected in the pre-game process.  I think this is not the first time I've tried to front-load the BP, only to find out in-game that it's kind of impossible to actually make use of it all.

I will admit to being a little puzzled by that statement.
I am using all my BP. Jefgte is using all of his. Snips last report ran a $8 and 6bp surplus, while Walter was 0/0 left.

As far as I can tell, you're simply choosing to invest more heavily in IC than in warships.
Which does not cause any problems for you because of Snip's ruling of no early wars, and the other ruling that you can save up a large amount of BP from one year to another.

In the long run, your economic focus will allow the more rapid development of your colonies, giving you more ability to suddenly take that surplus BP and build new ships with the latest technology.  As a game strategy abandoning ship construction for the first 4-6 game years is probably the best "move".

As a player, I happen to disagree with both rulings. 
The first I get from the need for game play not to get bogged down (and it did anyhow).  We are allowed to tussle over colonies, but fighting Jefgte over Madagascar would have involved battles in the Red Sea, and land would quickly follow. I suppose I could have taken the River Platte from Vilnus, but that 'one province is roughly the same as others' aspect kicked in.
Absent actual threat, I think we should at least roll play that there is a threat, after all we're building these navies for some reason.   

The second ruling, I really can't see how you can store surplus production capacity...especially as changing tech rules means engines/armorplate/shells/guns/fire control tables...all become outdated swiftly.  There's not much alloy/machined parts that could really be made and stored indefinitely for the future.

However, I accept I won't like all the rules and rulings :)

Sorry, I don't mean that it's literally impossible to use all my BP, because that's obviously not correct.  I mean that it's functionally impossible given my decisions in-play.  If that's not something folks want to allow changes in, that's fine, but you did ask for us to bring stuff up.

[Jefgte]

Sorry, I don't mean that it's literally impossible to use all my BP, because that's obviously not correct.  I mean that it's functionally impossible given my decisions in-play.  If that's not something folks want to allow changes in, that's fine, but you did ask for us to bring stuff up.

The price of colonies may not be expensive.
I do not plan to invest more than $ 2 and 2BP per colonies per turn.

Priority to the Fleet  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

I will admit to being a little puzzled by that statement.
I am using all my BP. Jefgte is using all of his. Snips last report ran a $8 and 6bp surplus, while Walter was 0/0 left.

Sorry, I don't mean that it's literally impossible to use all my BP, because that's obviously not correct.  I mean that it's functionally impossible given my decisions in-play.  If that's not something folks want to allow changes in, that's fine, but you did ask for us to bring stuff up.
[/quote]

I think you are entirely right, it is the time/place to bring various things up.
Perhaps I did not structure my reply correctly, or I should have broken it into pieces.

As only one player seemed to have this problem, it puzzled me as I viewed it more of your own choice.

However, as Jefgte is observing, perhaps the amount of Excess IC available for investment is too low and there is a desire to grow the colonies faster.
That would fit with what Rocky is actually doing.

So very much yes, this is the time/place to bring the idea forward.

When we were doing world building, I roughed out the costs to build and maintain a couple fleet types, I believe we wound up going with a Japanese style fleet build,  and the IC and BP wound up being put slightly higher to afford various things like Land units, drydocks, and Colonial investments.
That doesn't mean the final number was the correct one :)

Probably should be in a Economy Thread.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Update :  Snip has returned, so we are starting to move forward again :)

[Desertfox]

Good to hear, great timing as well as I was out at sea for a week. If anyone has any questions about the former British and Spanish colonies in the Eastern Caribbean, I got a good firsthand look at a few of them.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Sounds like Foxxy had a good time in the Carrib :)

Unfortunately Snip's gone silent again - guess it was just "coming up for air"
But at least he got caught up on where we're at.
...on the plus side I'm now past my work crunch time...

[The Rock Doctor]

With all due respect to snip, we cannot keep waiting for him.  It's been at least two months as it is.

I think it is better to move into 1912 with the rules we have than to continued pausing without any decisions on the rules.

My only immediate concern is the fate of colonies. A decision has to be made whether there's going to be a re-set of claims or not.  For my part, I do not want a reset; the addition of colonial resource factors or such will not radically change my approach to things.  I grabbed settler colonies, coaling stations on their way to settler colonies, and places to support access to the Pacific.   If coffee producing provinces in Africa suddenly become a thing because of new rules, I'll jump in after the fact.

[Kaiser Kirk]

With all due respect to snip, we cannot keep waiting for him.  It's been at least two months as it is.

I think it is better to move into 1912 with the rules we have than to continued pausing without any decisions on the rules.

My only immediate concern is the fate of colonies. A decision has to be made whether there's going to be a re-set of claims or not.  For my part, I do not want a reset; the addition of colonial resource factors or such will not radically change my approach to things.  I grabbed settler colonies, coaling stations on their way to settler colonies, and places to support access to the Pacific.   If coffee producing provinces in Africa suddenly become a thing because of new rules, I'll jump in after the fact.

It's not the news I wanted to post, but I feel an obligation to keep folks informed of where things are at.

As for simply moving forward... I've been debating that as well.
March is nearly here.
We Can NOT keep delaying this.

I really don't want to step on toes, all the documents underpinning this SIM are Snips, he's put a lot into getting it going.
But we need to move forward.
Darman's back in Iberia, We've got Foxxy slated for Japan, we had that fellow interested in the Iroquois, and Maddox is looking to join.

What was an adjustment aimed for the beginning of February...has gotten delayed a month.

As for Colonies - I think you're right Rocky. Perhaps it will be a declaration you can 'give up' any bits you now find undesirable, but otherwise keep rolling as it is.

"Thinking out loud "

Should I (we) just start moving along ?
I can take and process Colonial bids starting the 28th, and turn around the results on the 1st, with Turns due the week of the 1st.

For Colonial Acquisitions I will need
-Map
-Sailing time  (expect 8knts to location)
-Number of Land points
-Number of Supply points
-Any naval escorts and supply vessels.

While the decisions haven't been formalized, I know Snip wants compact colonies centered on a anchorage/supply point to keep this nautical in focus. He wants to implement some sort of region- that's actually IN our current colonial rules, just not really used.

To aid that I can publish the Ports Map.
It's only for non-PC/NPC areas. Shows historic sheltered anchorages and ports, no more than one per province.  All islands are expected to have somewhere to land.
New colonial claims will be restricted to 1 or more ports and adjacent provinces for this turn.
However Snip's region vision finalizes, that should fit within well.

It also prevents sudden deep spread/sprawl.

I want to grant a blanket 5 IC increase, but I think that's waaaay overstepping my role

QUESTION FOR ALL

Presuming Snip continues being 'busy'

Shall I  :
1) Take Colonial bids as above starting this Friday the 28th, and returning results to players on Sunday the 1st ?
For Colonial Acquisitions I will need
-Map
-Sailing time  (expect 8knts to location)
-Number of Land points
-Number of Supply points
-Any naval escorts and supply vessels.

2) Proceed with Posting the Ports map to use as a base for claims.

3) For Foxxy and Maddox - I believe Foxxy has Japan.   I *expect* Maddox as China, but Snip was thinking on it.
We have no set-up information for either.  Further, as major NPCs they start with a fair bit of resources... but we do not know quite what.
PC start with 24 deployment points.
I say for this round, we allow Foxxy and Maddox to each pick up to 4 ports and adjacent provinces (if desired) for expansion.
...not sure how I'll deal with any conflict between the two without background...

SO - Snip (Veto ability) , Walter/Jefgte/Rocky/Darman/Foxxy/Maddox..

What do you think ?