Vilnius Union Ships, 1911 - 1919

[Desertfox]

Better yes, more boring also yes.

[TacCovert4]

Agreed.  It loses the 'unique interest' factor.......but it gains a crap ton of utility in exchange.

Honestly, the only reason I'd go for the 400 over the 350 in this design is if you were making a determination that all future Vilnius ships will use the 400mm gun.....in which case the earlier design makes sense from uniformity.  This with the 350 is a much more utilitarian ship for its actual stated role as a large armored cruiser.

[The Rock Doctor]

From a logistics perspective, yes, future capital ships are almost certainly shipping the 400mm.

On the other hand, I've just built six capital ships mounting the same 350mm.

[The Rock Doctor]

Not that I have 170mm guns, mind you.

Think HMS Effingham for main battery layout.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1920

Displacement:
   9,062 t light; 9,457 t standard; 10,264 t normal; 10,910 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (584.66 ft / 570.87 ft) x 57.09 ft x (22.97 / 24.03 ft)
   (178.20 m / 174.00 m) x 17.40 m  x (7.00 / 7.32 m)

Armament:
      7 - 6.69" / 170 mm 45.0 cal guns - 151.18lbs / 68.58kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     5 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      2 - 6.69" / 170 mm 45.0 cal guns - 151.18lbs / 68.58kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.74kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      8 - 0.39" / 10.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,369 lbs / 621 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   413.39 ft / 126.00 m   15.75 ft / 4.80 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 87,132 shp / 65,000 Kw = 32.08 kts
   Range 13,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,453 tons

Complement:
   509 - 662

Cost:
   £2.062 million / $8.248 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 361 tons, 3.5 %
      - Guns: 361 tons, 3.5 %
   Armour: 1,780 tons, 17.3 %
      - Belts: 1,032 tons, 10.1 %
      - Armament: 102 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 605 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,047 tons, 29.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,477 tons, 33.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,202 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 398 tons, 3.9 %
      - Hull below water: 91 tons
      - Hull above water: 91 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 101 tons
      - Above deck: 115 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,552 lbs / 4,333 Kg = 63.7 x 6.7 " / 170 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.488
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  28.87 ft / 8.80 m,  23.95 ft / 7.30 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  23.95 ft / 7.30 m,  23.95 ft / 7.30 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:      20.41 ft / 6.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,327 Square feet or 1,981 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 478 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Jefgte]

I note that you have not really secondary guns (130mm or 100mm guns vs DD) but 9x170+2x50AA

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm not entirely certain I require one.  It's faster and a better seaboat than most, if not all, destroyers and smaller torpedo-craft and it's going to be putting out a decent number of shells at a good range.

[The Rock Doctor]

But I can stick six QF 3" mounts aft at the expense of modest amount of the weight reserve.

[The Rock Doctor]

The Nieugiety class battleships are the Union's earliest all-big-gun battleships, close on being clones to the historical Helgoland class.  Laid down in 1905 and 1906, they're at or maybe just past the expected mid-point in their lifespan.

The question now is what work, if any, they should receive at this point.

A basic refit would add a few anti-air guns, update the fire control from first to third generation, and maybe a few other basic updates.  The cost would be in the ballpark of $0.4/0.4 BP, just tapping the miscellaneous weight.

Any refurbishment comes with a cash cost of about $4.

A simple refurbishment would change the bunkerage from oil-sprayed coal to oil.  I could probably bump the bunkerage up to 8,000 or 9,000 nm for the same weight of fuel.  This would add around $1.60 in costs, no BP involved.  Theoretically this means the ship has greater range, isn't as visible, and probably doesn't need as many crew to support coal movement.

A more complex refurbishment would update the engines.  They're still turbines, but they'd be better turbines.  Seakeeping would allow two or three additional knots of speed, for a top speed in the 23-24 knot range.  23 would be good enough to pace the Wrogi class ships.  New machinery would add up to $5.20 and 2.60 BP in costs, depending on how much new machinery there was.

I'm not touching the main battery.

Torpedo bulges but not bulkheads could be added, though I've not costed them.  Probably $1 to $2 and the same in BP.

So new work could range from $0.40 to $13/4 BP. 

The old machinery could be scrapped for a small discount, or re-used in some fashion, though I still have several sets of old cruiser turbines I haven't re-used yet and should probably just scrap.

Whatcha think?

[Desertfox]

If you want to keep them on the battleline then sure reengine them, otherwise, do a cheaper refit and use them as colonial station ships.

[The Rock Doctor]

If you want to keep them on the battleline then sure reengine them, otherwise, do a cheaper refit and use them as colonial station ships.

At the moment, I have them parked as a squadron in the Caribbean.  I haven't decided if I'll keep them there or rotate the Wrogi class in after a couple more years.

[TacCovert4]

Well, given that the Implacables are about the same 'class' as these, just laid out like the Iron Dukes instead with ABQXY, and they're 24kts....hmm.

If you have the funds, I'd say to re-engine them up to 23kts, the range isn't all that important if they're on your Caribbean station, and put any tonnage savings into bulges, revamping the secondary/AA, or since it's a deep refit increasing the TDS thickness and adding deck armor.  In the Caribbean the Torpedo defense is going to be the big one since you have hundreds of MTBs and DDs around and soon to be aircraft with torpedoes.

[Jefgte]

A more complex refurbishment would update the engines.  They're still turbines, but they'd be better turbines.  Seakeeping would allow two or three additional knots of speed, for a top speed in the 23-24 knot range.  23 would be good enough to pace the Wrogi class ships.  New machinery would add up to $5.20 and 2.60 BP in costs, depending on how much new machinery there was.

These are good 20 000t BBs
Without hesitation => increase the speed to 23kts   ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

The Wspanialy class pre-dreadnought battleships might linger in secondary service for as much as another decade.  Their mixed armament is not proving efficient in an age of ranged fire control, and their machinery is pre-turbine, but their size and age is a strong argument against extensive refurbishment.

However, a refit would improves their anti-destroyer armament, get them some AA, and expand their command and control capabilities in order to manage a convoy or supervise a landing operation.  The side/top protection of the secondary 200mm/45 turrets would also be improved, since this is a notable design error (I'd typed in 15.0 mm rather than the intended 150mm way back when I was doing the pre-game navy builds and never caught it).

This will probably happen in 2/19 but maybe 1/20, depending on the budget.

Changes are:

8x1 50mm QF are replaced with 8x1 100mm QF
4x1 50mm AA installed (just ignore that "too early for AA" warning)
Add 100 t for command facilities
Add 25 t for L/R wireless
Add 10 t for a second S/R wireless
Add 111 t for 1912 fire control
Add 49 t of armor for secondary battery

Cost:

New armament:  $0.096 and 0.048 BP
New armor:  $0.079 and 0.079 BP
Replaced miscellaneous weight:  $0.246 and 0.246 BP
Total:  $0.42 and 0.373 BP


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1902

Displacement:
   15,145 t light; 15,868 t standard; 16,726 t normal; 17,412 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (452.76 ft / 452.76 ft) x 78.74 ft x (25.26 / 26.14 ft)
   (138.00 m / 138.00 m) x 24.00 m  x (7.70 / 7.97 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 45.0 cal guns - 675.51lbs / 306.41kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1902 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 7.87" / 200 mm 45.0 cal guns - 246.18lbs / 111.67kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1902 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 45.0 cal guns - 67.61lbs / 30.67kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1902 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.74kg shells, 150 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,744 lbs / 2,606 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   294.29 ft / 89.70 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   158.43 ft / 48.29 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   294.29 ft / 89.70 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   7.87" / 200 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.79" / 20 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   4th:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   5th:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.81" / 300 mm, Aft 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,733 ihp / 13,975 Kw = 19.08 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,544 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   734 - 955

Cost:
   £1.416 million / $5.664 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,104 tons, 6.6 %
      - Guns: 1,104 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 5,991 tons, 35.8 %
      - Belts: 3,124 tons, 18.7 %
      - Armament: 1,439 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,150 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Towers: 277 tons, 1.7 %
   Machinery: 2,838 tons, 17.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,884 tons, 29.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,581 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 328 tons, 2.0 %
      - Hull below water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 32 tons
      - Above deck: 246 tons

Fittings: 
-111 t:  1912 fire control
-100 t:  Command facilities
-25 t:  L/R wireless
-10 t:  Redundant S/R wireless
-32 t:  Weight reserve (on deck)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,752 lbs / 10,320 Kg = 34.0 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.89

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.654
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,310 Square feet or 2,537 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 665 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Warning: Date too early for anti-air gun - 5th Battery  Shut up Springsharp you're not my dad

[Kaiser Kirk]

The Wspanialy class pre-dreadnought battleships might linger in secondary service for as much as another decade.  Their mixed armament is not proving efficient in an age of ranged fire control, and their machinery is pre-turbine, but their size and age is a strong argument against extensive refurbishment.

A) Are you sure Springsharp is not your dad? After all, Luke was surprised to learn of his heritage.
Have you ever found yourself saying "These are not the rocks you are looking for" ?

B) I am inclined to think that most of us will be fielding a core battleline with support elements, but we really only have funds for that.
The number of detached ships or squadrons which can defeat an updated PD and some support ships will be low. 
So I think there should be value in it.

Also, the Carrib has a number of nations around - 5 Tribes, Rome, Aztecs, Maya, Parthia, Japan. Even if you are in conflict with The Norse in Europe... PDs should help secure the rear areas against potentially opportunistic NPCs... or PCs.

[The Rock Doctor]

A)  My god, no, everybody should always be looking for rocks.

B)  Yeah, overseas duty is a possibility.  I've got my oldest pair of dreads in the Caribbean already.  These two could go to North Erica if I were so concerned.

I expect similar work to follow on a couple of armored cruiser classes for much the same reason.  They can't go toe-to-toe with a modern BC, but they'll suffice to pick off AMCs or herd merchies between ports