Barbarossa refurbishment

[Kaiser Kirk]

I agree the actual weapon performance isn't horrid. The ROF is low. Yes, 172kg shells will hurt, but only if they can hit.

In my opinion, the problem I'm pointing out is that using the old guns with the old turrets,  you may have trouble using fire control. 
Those 1896 turrets don't track or elevate quickly, and your overall rate of fire (4rpm) is too low to maintain a good splash ladder to make fire control corrections.

I'm trying to be helpful by letting you know of what I think a significant deficiency is. That's part of our peer-review job for each other.
Part of this SIM is that you get to decide you like the idea and think the resource savings is worth the investment.
:)

[Jefgte]

Better cruiser

Heavy Scout Cruiser laid down 1911

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 410 t standard; 7 521 t normal; 8 409 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (491,00 ft / 491,00 ft) x 64,00 ft x (16,43 / 17,90 ft)
   (149,66 m / 149,66 m) x 19,51 m  x (5,01 / 5,45 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm 45,0 cal guns - 392,66lbs / 178,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,03lbs / 24,05kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2 992 lbs / 1 357 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,15" / 80 mm   310,00 ft / 94,49 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   1,17" / 30 mm   181,00 ft / 55,17 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   2,55" / 65 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,77" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,17" / 30 mm
   Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm  Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,95" / 100 mm, Aft 1,17" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30 000 shp / 22 380 Kw = 25,06 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 999 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   403 - 524

Cost:
   £0,647 million / $2,587 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 8,5 %
      - Guns: 636 tons, 8,5 %
   Armour: 1 227 tons, 16,3 %
      - Belts: 436 tons, 5,8 %
      - Armament: 322 tons, 4,3 %
      - Armour Deck: 426 tons, 5,7 %
      - Conning Towers: 42 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 1 326 tons, 17,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 542 tons, 33,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 521 tons, 20,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 269 tons, 3,6 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 124 tons
      - Above deck: 85 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 114 lbs / 4 134 Kg = 23,4 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 13,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,510 / 0,523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,16 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  19,00 ft / 5,79 m,  16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  16,00 ft / 4,88 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Average freeboard:      14,94 ft / 4,55 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,8 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 129 Square feet or 1 963 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 481 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 1,15
      - Overall: 0,90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

24t for 8 TT x 18''
60t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
30t for additionnal pumps
30t for additionnal ventilation
100t reserved for troops, materials, mines...

Cost, 5,184 $ & BP

[Jefgte]

El Mynia - El Badari, Byzantine Empire SC5 - Heavy Scout Cruiser laid down 1911

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 411 t standard; 7 524 t normal; 8 415 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (504,00 ft / 504,00 ft) x 62,10 ft x (16,50 / 17,98 ft)
   (153,62 m / 153,62 m) x 18,93 m  x (5,03 / 5,48 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm 45,0 cal guns - 392,67lbs / 178,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,02lbs / 24,05kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2 992 lbs / 1 357 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,15" / 80 mm   317,00 ft / 96,62 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   1,17" / 30 mm   183,00 ft / 55,78 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     4,00 ft / 1,22 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   2,55" / 65 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,77" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,17" / 30 mm
   Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm  Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,95" / 100 mm, Aft 1,17" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29 244 shp / 21 816 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 004 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   403 - 525

Cost:
   £0,642 million / $2,568 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 8,5 %
      - Guns: 636 tons, 8,5 %
   Armour: 1 239 tons, 16,5 %
      - Belts: 442 tons, 5,9 %
      - Armament: 330 tons, 4,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 424 tons, 5,6 %
      - Conning Towers: 42 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 1 293 tons, 17,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 561 tons, 34,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 524 tons, 20,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 272 tons, 3,6 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 124 tons
      - Above deck: 88 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 190 lbs / 4 169 Kg = 23,6 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 14,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,510 / 0,523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  20,00 ft / 6,10 m,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00 %,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,59 ft / 4,75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 045 Square feet or 1 955 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 474 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,87
      - Longitudinal: 1,15
      - Overall: 0,90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24t for 8 TT x 18''
63t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
30t for additionnal pumps
30t for additionnal ventilation
100t reserved for troops, materials, mines...


Cost, 5,184 $ & 5,184BP

[Jefgte]

Testing SC5 to AGB ;
Speed decrease from 25kts to 22kts  & armor increase from 16% to 23%

El Mynia - El Badari, Byzantine Empire Colonial Armored Gun Boat laid down 1911

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 411 t standard; 7 524 t normal; 8 415 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (504,00 ft / 504,00 ft) x 62,10 ft x (16,50 / 17,98 ft)
   (153,62 m / 153,62 m) x 18,93 m  x (5,03 / 5,48 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm 45,0 cal guns - 392,67lbs / 178,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,02lbs / 24,05kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2 992 lbs / 1 357 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   1,57" / 40 mm   180,00 ft / 54,86 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     4,00 ft / 1,22 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   2,55" / 65 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,77" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,95" / 100 mm, Aft 1,17" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 18 000 shp / 13 428 Kw = 22,02 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 004 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   403 - 525

Cost:
   £0,572 million / $2,290 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 8,5 %
      - Guns: 636 tons, 8,5 %
   Armour: 1 737 tons, 23,1 %
      - Belts: 802 tons, 10,7 %
      - Armament: 330 tons, 4,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 562 tons, 7,5 %
      - Conning Towers: 42 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 796 tons, 10,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 559 tons, 34,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 524 tons, 20,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 272 tons, 3,6 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 124 tons
      - Above deck: 88 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12 020 lbs / 5 452 Kg = 30,9 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 3,2 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 14,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 94 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,510 / 0,523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  20,00 ft / 6,10 m,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00 %,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,59 ft / 4,75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 045 Square feet or 1 955 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 474 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 1,17
      - Overall: 0,90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24t for 8 TT x 18''
63t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
30t for additionnal pumps
30t for additionnal ventilation
100t reserved for troops, materials, mines...

[Jefgte]

Another 6000t with the same artillery & speed of AC2 Bourgas class to work together

Edime - Elena, Byzantine Empire   6000t AC2 - Bourgas class laid down 1911

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 404 t standard; 7 231 t normal; 7 893 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (504,00 ft / 504,00 ft) x 62,10 ft x (15,86 / 16,96 ft)
   (153,62 m / 153,62 m) x 18,93 m  x (4,83 / 5,17 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm 45,0 cal guns - 392,67lbs / 178,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,02lbs / 24,05kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 2 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2 992 lbs / 1 357 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,71" / 120 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   1,57" / 40 mm   180,00 ft / 54,86 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     4,00 ft / 1,22 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   2,55" / 65 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,77" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,27" / 32 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,95" / 100 mm, Aft 1,17" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24 412 shp / 18 211 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 489 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   391 - 509

Cost:
   £0,612 million / $2,448 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 8,8 %
      - Guns: 636 tons, 8,8 %
   Armour: 1 497 tons, 20,7 %
      - Belts: 654 tons, 9,0 %
      - Armament: 330 tons, 4,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 471 tons, 6,5 %
      - Conning Towers: 41 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 1 079 tons, 14,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 565 tons, 35,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 232 tons, 17,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 222 tons, 3,1 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 74 tons
      - Above deck: 88 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9 686 lbs / 4 393 Kg = 24,9 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 14,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,510 / 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  20,00 ft / 6,10 m,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00 %,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,59 ft / 4,75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 045 Square feet or 1 955 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 479 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 1,15
      - Overall: 0,90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24t for 8 TT x 18''
63t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
30t for additionnal pumps
30t for additionnal ventilation
50t reserved for troops, materials, mines...

[Jefgte]

With Edime class, Byzantine Empire could have 2 other battle squadrons each one could engage a battleship.

1st BS
Barbarossa & Mehmed II (16x254 - 22kts)
Bourgas & Edime (12x234 - 24kts)

2nd BS
Suleiman I & Abdulhamid Kahn (16x254 - 22kts)
Bapha & Elena (12x234 - 24kts)

With salvoes organised every  8/10sec from the first BB to the fourth cruiser.
An enemy battleship could be on fire in about 12 to 15 mn by about 1500 10" & 9"2
A good training of the Admirals is necessary to obtain rhythmic salvoes.

The work of each battle squadron is to burn down and exhaust a battleship.
Then, damaged battleships are easy prey for Torpedo boats...

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't know.  They've got the guns and the speed (for now) to cause problems for a battleship, but their protection isn't going to keep them in the battleline for very long.

It'd be interesting to see it gamed out.

[Jefgte]

IMO, a PD will be reamed in 15 minutes.

A dreadnought (21000t) will oppose greater resistance and will likely engage the Barbarossa and Mehmed II battleships (14750t), each with half of its 12 "as they pose the greatest threat. (OTL, Exeter vs. Graf Spee)
The secondary artillery would shoot the 2 cruisers Bourgas & Edime.

A super Dreadnought (27000t) would be more dangerous for the two 14750t battleships -B300-120 - T340-150 - Bbte320 - D75-35 ...

For Dreadnought & super Dreadnought, perhaps the best tactic would be to quickly blew up the 6000t Edime cruiser and then shoot the cruiser Bourgas 13740t and finally the two 14750t battleships.

To not be burned and exhausted, the Super Dreadnought must blow up his opponents in 20 to 30mn, have lucky hits. 1, it's possible, 2, it's remarkable, 3 and 4, do not dream ...

[The Rock Doctor]

Your line will be longer than the enemy's line, and these cruisers would be at the rear of it.  Any notable flooding or engine damage will quickly see them left behind as the lines continue onward. 

[Jefgte]

Your line will be longer than the enemy's line, and these cruisers would be at the rear of it.

These light battle squadrons will operate at the end of the line, they will be able to maneuver freely.
Admiral Guruf is responsible for training and maneuvering these 2 BS together and separately.

Any notable flooding or engine damage will quickly see them left behind as the lines continue onward.

In an action, 1 or 2 ships per BS can be lost ...


It'd be interesting to see it gamed out.  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's interesting indeed.
My reading of Tshushima(sp) is that the penetrating 12" hits were not the killers, but flooding and fires were.
Back when I ran N3's bavaria, I compared the effects of lots of mid-sized shell bursts to a fewer large shell bursts and concluded that - at that point in time- more midsized was better.
That ship lives on in N7, in my 20 x 180mm double casement battleship :)

Speed : Up to you on how you wish to employ them.
If they are wedded to the battleline, then a lower speed make sense, but does deny you flexibility in independent deployment
At 23 knots, they would be as fast as most of my old cruisers, but slower than all the new.
At 25 knots, they could catch my old cruisers and have a chance to avoid the more recent one. The Byzantines would know the Parthians have launched a series of armored cruisers with the same rough size and armament as the Byzantines, so they can extrapolate the rest.

Armor :
First a note : You are currently researching the 1910 Capital Ship Architecture, but will not have it available until 1912.  Since the guns are over 210mm, you must use Capital Ship Arch for these ships. Which means you need either an upper belt - if laying down in 1911, or to wait until 1912.

I see a range of armors up there.
The USN's 10"40 could penetrate 172mm at roughly 11,000m.  It is reasonable to assume both Byzantine's and Parthia's armored cruisers can manage the same.
In the Original time line "now" the US considered battle ranges to be 8,000m.  The British 9.2"MkX can pen 135mm at 9,000m.
So, if you lack speed, or are tied to a battle line, armor in the 150mm or less range is questionable against any Parthian Armored Cruiser.
Further, if you look at battle tracks at Falklands, Jutland, or others, you find a tremendous range of ranges, simply "staying at range" is hard. The Invincible tried that at Falklands, and it worked sometimes, but she still took a 8" hit into a coal bunker adjacent to a magazine- if not a dud it may have sunk her.

Very interesting range of vessels. I think the 25knot ones give you more flexibility in how you use them, and what they choose to engage. You want to engage my protected cruisers and Snips cruisers, not the armored cruisers.  The Graf Spee model I guess :)

I feel obliged to bring this up again. I know We have discussed and disagreed strongly on the weaponry before. You disagree and choose to explore this.  I want to be clear on my misgivings.
My belief continues to be that reusing guns and turrets has a downside. In this case there has been critical technological advances since their design.
These are 1896 guns. They could not be based on 1895 technology, so they must be the 1880 technology. That is a substantial difference.
The guns created were before QF technology and faster breeches, set in mountings made before gearing for continuous aim or later fire controls was introduced, fed by hoists from the same period, should not yield good results.  This is especially true due to the small # of guns, combined with a low ROF for the older weapons, making ranging by shell splashes hard.

[Jefgte]

...Armor :
First a note : You are currently researching the 1910 Capital Ship Architecture, but will not have it available until 1912.  Since the guns are over 210mm, you must use Capital Ship Arch for these ships. Which means you need either an upper belt - if laying down in 1911, or to wait until 1912...

I can add a 50mm upper belt, splinters protection, I have BP reserve.

...I feel obliged to bring this up again. I know We have discussed and disagreed strongly on the weaponry before. You disagree and choose to explore this.  I want to be clear on my misgivings.
My belief continues to be that reusing guns and turrets has a downside. In this case there has been critical technological advances since their design.
These are 1896 guns. They could not be based on 1895 technology, so they must be the 1880 technology. That is a substantial difference.
The guns created were before QF technology and faster breeches, set in mountings made before gearing for continuous aim or later fire controls was introduced, fed by hoists from the same period, should not yield good results.  This is especially true due to the small # of guns, combined with a low ROF for the older weapons, making ranging by shell splashes hard...

I chose the artillery of the United Kingdom since the beginning of the game (Naval Weapons).
For battleships, I use HMS Swiftsure turrets.
For the cruisers, the guns of HMS Warrior and Defense.
To be consistent, I try to respect the dates of commissioning for guns and ships.

6000t cruisers were designed as heavy scout cruisers. the different SS have made them evolve to integrate the BS, They are now pocket AC  ;)

The interest of this game is to design original ships & innovative tactics.  ;)

[Jefgte]

With 50mm upper belt:

Edime - Elena, Byzantine Empire   6600t AC2 - Bourgas class laid down 1911

Displacement:
   6 675 t light; 7 093 t standard; 7 890 t normal; 8 527 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (504,00 ft / 504,00 ft) x 62,10 ft x (17,30 / 18,36 ft)
   (153,62 m / 153,62 m) x 18,93 m  x (5,27 / 5,60 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm 45,0 cal guns - 392,67lbs / 178,11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,02lbs / 24,05kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0,30" / 7,7 mm 90,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2 992 lbs / 1 357 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,71" / 120 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Ends:   1,95" / 50 mm   180,00 ft / 54,86 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     4,00 ft / 1,22 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   1,95" / 50 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,92" / 150 mm   2,55" / 65 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,77" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,27" / 32 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3,95" / 100 mm, Aft 1,27" / 32 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25 640 shp / 19 128 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 5 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 434 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   418 - 544

Cost:
   £0,643 million / $2,573 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 636 tons, 8,1 %
      - Guns: 636 tons, 8,1 %
   Armour: 1 787 tons, 22,7 %
      - Belts: 937 tons, 11,9 %
      - Armament: 330 tons, 4,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 475 tons, 6,0 %
      - Conning Towers: 45 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 1 133 tons, 14,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 896 tons, 36,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 215 tons, 15,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 222 tons, 2,8 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 30 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 74 tons
      - Above deck: 88 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11 557 lbs / 5 242 Kg = 29,7 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 3,1 ft / 0,9 m
   Roll period: 14,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,510 / 0,519
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   18,00 %,  20,00 ft / 6,10 m,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Forward deck:   32,00 %,  17,00 ft / 5,18 m,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Aft deck:   32,00 %,  15,00 ft / 4,57 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Quarter deck:   18,00 %,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m,  14,00 ft / 4,27 m
      - Average freeboard:      15,56 ft / 4,74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 21 045 Square feet or 1 955 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 524 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,29
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

24t for 8 TT x 18''
63t for top fire control
25t for Marconi
30t for additionnal pumps
30t for additionnal ventilation
50t reserved for troops, materials, mines...