Nav 7 History

[The Rock Doctor]

I saw the list of battles but it's kind of context-free at the moment, other than being re-purposed historical conflicts. 

I figured the Netherlands is just about, if not the last place the Union annexes, and the eighteenth century just seems to early.  It's at the far end of the Union, after all.  Gotta gobble up Denmark and the Germans first.

It doesn't sound like Jef is interested in gaining or losing territory in the 1870 conflict, so I'm waiting on snip's response to my suggestion.  Otherwise, we're kind of talking about a great war with no change in borders and that sounds kind of pointless.

[snip]

Im assuming the below is the suggestion?

Notionally, central Europe at the beginning of the 1870s war.

The scenario sees the Netherlands, Switzerland, ~Hapsburg Empire, and the Hetman Cossacks allied against Rome and the Vilnius Union.  Perhaps there was a succession crisis, perhaps the Hapsburgs were meddling somewhere.  Maybe Rome and the Union were just hungry.

Light blue shows territories gained by Rome in the war; dark blue is the Union gain.  We've got opportunities for intensive land warfare in various terrains, as well as naval actions (Vilnius vs Dutch, Rome vs. ~Hapsburgs).

The other powers don't actually have to get fully involved if they don't want to - they could have observers established with either side, for example - but there's no reason they couldn't.

Alternately, I suppose, this could be an earlier conflict...

[Walter]

I saw the list of battles but it's kind of context-free at the moment, other than being re-purposed historical conflicts.

It's a quick and simple way to add something to your nation's list of conflicts based on existing stuff. Easily removed from the list as well.

I figured the Netherlands is just about, if not the last place the Union annexes, and the eighteenth century just seems to early.  It's at the far end of the Union, after all.  Gotta gobble up Denmark and the Germans first.

Hmmm... to my knowledge, the 1803-1810 of the Sixth one is the 19th Century... but who says that one has to be the last one? :)

It doesn't sound like Jef is interested in gaining or losing territory in the 1870 conflict, so I'm waiting on snip's response to my suggestion.

Not to thrilled about it either. I made a map of the changing Eastern Border but I feel that the Northern Kingdom's borders set in the October 1866 image at the end of the Sixth Mongol-Norse War should be the final change anywhere in the Kingdom. I would be happier if the 1870 conflict would be one around the mid 1860s.

Otherwise, we're kind of talking about a great war with no change in borders and that sounds kind of pointless.

Yes, it does sound like a broken pencil. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

Im assuming the below is the suggestion?

Notionally, central Europe at the beginning of the 1870s war.

The scenario sees the Netherlands, Switzerland, ~Hapsburg Empire, and the Hetman Cossacks allied against Rome and the Vilnius Union.  Perhaps there was a succession crisis, perhaps the Hapsburgs were meddling somewhere.  Maybe Rome and the Union were just hungry.

Light blue shows territories gained by Rome in the war; dark blue is the Union gain.  We've got opportunities for intensive land warfare in various terrains, as well as naval actions (Vilnius vs Dutch, Rome vs. ~Hapsburgs).

The other powers don't actually have to get fully involved if they don't want to - they could have observers established with either side, for example - but there's no reason they couldn't.

Alternately, I suppose, this could be an earlier conflict...

It is, yes. 

If Walter was wanting to have limited involvement, for instance, he could have an expeditionary force in Holland - and stage a big Dunkirk-style evac at the end.  He could even be hosting a Dutch-Government-in-Exile right now.  But the Norse and the Union could otherwise have an agreement not to fight in Scandinavia, for example.

[The Rock Doctor]

I saw the list of battles but it's kind of context-free at the moment, other than being re-purposed historical conflicts.

It's a quick and simple way to add something to your nation's list of conflicts based on existing stuff. Easily removed from the list as well.

I figured the Netherlands is just about, if not the last place the Union annexes, and the eighteenth century just seems to early.  It's at the far end of the Union, after all.  Gotta gobble up Denmark and the Germans first.

Hmmm... to my knowledge, the 1803-1810 of the Sixth one is the 19th Century... but who says that one has to be the last one? :)

It doesn't sound like Jef is interested in gaining or losing territory in the 1870 conflict, so I'm waiting on snip's response to my suggestion.

Not to thrilled about it either. I made a map of the changing Eastern Border but I feel that the Northern Kingdom's borders set in the October 1866 image at the end of the Sixth Mongol-Norse War should be the final change anywhere in the Kingdom. I would be happier if the 1870 conflict would be one around the mid 1860s.

Otherwise, we're kind of talking about a great war with no change in borders and that sounds kind of pointless.

Yes, it does sound like a broken pencil. :)

There's no reason we couldn't have the big war a decade earlier; it's a short enough period that we can have meat-grinder campaigns, railways, ironclad warships, and all that good stuff in the conflict.

[Walter]

Since Kirk said "lots of fighting for little to no gain", I guess I must have McClellan in command of the Forces on the British Isles in order to not change the border there much. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

That's the spirit!

[snip]

That idea works for me as far as the when of Pannonia becoming a Thing(tm) for Rome again.

[The Rock Doctor]

Coolio.  So Walter, Jef, Kirk and Olekit need to figure out where they fall into things, then.  You and I have the core figured out.

[snip]

I mean a Norse-Roman front in England is a given in this war :P

[The Rock Doctor]

Walter, you have some bits of historical Sweden.  Do you want to have always had them or do you want them as a pick-up in a specific conflict (and if so, which one?)

[Kaiser Kirk]

The one flaw with the Golden Horde Campaign plan is that after they attack Vilnius and then Parthia, the Norse will probably expect them to be bold enough to attack the Northern Kingdom as well at the same time, so they will either be ready for any Horde attacks or they will strike at the Horde before they can launch their attack. I kinda liked the idea to put something along the lines of the Battle of Nagashino in my list, having the sea of Horde Cavalry charge into oblivion against well-protected riflemen and guns. This could be the first crack in the Horde campaign which would lead up to it eventually breaking in your step 6. Having those naughty Romans pester us in the West will mean it will take a bit longer to make the Horde break.

You're correct that you overdid the cut & paste, and that the above is a potential problem, but I did try to patch it :)

That's why I used the spring thaw as a plot device....plus it's a real limitation.  The shores of the Black and Caspian seas should support conventional 1870s warfare long before the Belarus area or the Baltics.
So of course the Norse would see them coming :)  I don't recall suggesting any substantial setbacks for the Norse, in part because the Horde would be depleted at that point. You could do your battle as late war, the Horde running low on their limited supply of modern equipment throws the nomadic reserves in... and it's Omdurman again.

As for "breaking", the current Golden Horde gets 10 land points like all the other Major NPCs (I think some should have 20-30). Which isn't a threat.
Yet in our joint histories they were definitely a threat as witnessed by multiple nations feeling the need to gang up on them.  So I feel they must have been able to deploy more at some point in the recent past, and the territorial losses of this last war removed much of their population and capability.
And as you noted, it's plausible that During the course of the conflict, they run out of steam and are overmatched, but the battles in the west distract you.

[Walter]

I mean a Norse-Roman front in England is a given in this war :P

Yes, the evil Romans doing their stuff. We shall drive them into the Thames. :)

Walter, you have some bits of historical Sweden.  Do you want to have always had them or do you want them as a pick-up in a specific conflict (and if so, which one?)

In the Official "I love/hate you and here is why!" Thread, I had called the Swedish Empire rivals. I doubt the change to the Vilnius Union isn't going to change that much. I think it is likely that the border has gone back and forth a few times.

If we were to apply that list of conflicts to Navalism, I expect the Gunboat War to be fought mostly at sea with maybe a few border skirmishes here and there. So the final border shift would probably be the "Catherine the Great's Swedish War", although it is possible to assume that the Northern Kingdom after that conflict had a hold on a few more parts which were recaptured by Vilnius during the limited land conflicts of the Gunboat War.

As for "breaking", the current Golden Horde gets 10 land points like all the other Major NPCs (I think some should have 20-30). Which isn't a threat.

Perhaps the Golden Horde should get some extra land points at the expense of Naval tonnage.

[snip]

The land points thing Kirk is referencing relates to a specific thing within the Concessions rules and should not be taken as a measure of the overall military power of a given NPC state. I really really really don't want to have to define and keep track of individual NPC values.

[The Rock Doctor]

I mean a Norse-Roman front in England is a given in this war :P

Yes, the evil Romans doing their stuff. We shall drive them into the Thames. :)

Walter, you have some bits of historical Sweden.  Do you want to have always had them or do you want them as a pick-up in a specific conflict (and if so, which one?)

In the Official "I love/hate you and here is why!" Thread, I had called the Swedish Empire rivals. I doubt the change to the Vilnius Union isn't going to change that much. I think it is likely that the border has gone back and forth a few times.

If we were to apply that list of conflicts to Navalism, I expect the Gunboat War to be fought mostly at sea with maybe a few border skirmishes here and there. So the final border shift would probably be the "Catherine the Great's Swedish War", although it is possible to assume that the Northern Kingdom after that conflict had a hold on a few more parts which were recaptured by Vilnius during the limited land conflicts of the Gunboat War.

As for "breaking", the current Golden Horde gets 10 land points like all the other Major NPCs (I think some should have 20-30). Which isn't a threat.

Perhaps the Golden Horde should get some extra land points at the expense of Naval tonnage.

Let's go with Catherine's war, then.  I'll expand the southern scope so that Vilnius is steamrolling somebody in Germany or Denmark at the same time, so there's less of a sting at the loss of the Swedish territory, and perhaps less of an ability to do anything about it for a while anyway.