Nav 7 History

[Jefgte]

Surprises me that with all the past conflicts between them and the Romans, the Byzantines would allow the Romans through the Suez.

Completly free for commercial ships of all countries (Iberian, Roman, Norse...).
Military ships could pass but are not welcome in a no war zone.

The Sultan declares himself « attentive to all his peoples ».

Well... that is what he claims, but is he truly attentive to all his peoples? Only news and stories posted will tell once we start.

That's politic declaration    ;D

[Jefgte]

I do not imagine Byzantium going to war for religion reasons, in fact, 4 religions are admitted into the Constitution.

I see a possible war for territory or localized war for colonial conquests.

[Kaiser Kirk]

So one of the major areas of international history to sketch out is Ghengis Kahn and the Mongol Hordes through Tamerlane/Timur.
Walter has already sketched out the final bits, of how the Steppe got divided back up by the Nav 7 powers.

Historically, the Mongol invasions started about 1200 and were devastating. In many cases large scale invasions were actually raid which left ruins behind. The Mongols are particularly infamous for the tendency to put to death the inhabitants of any city that put up a resistance.  In other cases they would spare the intellectuals, enslave many of the women/children.

OTL The original invasions went East into modern China. They then turned west. In 1218 they started invading the area by the Aral Sea. This was followed by invasions into N7's Parthia.
At that time, the government of the Persian area had fractured into 3 Caliphates that covered from Syria to India. Most of Anatolia was owned by the Seljuk Turks, with Byzantine holding the western area.

N7  In N7, the idea is Byzantium and Parthia have completely recaptured their old territories before the Muslim expansion.

This means Byzantium had reconquered the Levant from the Muslims and would hold most of what it does in 1910. The exceptions would be the Parthia border would be on the Euphrates, and they probably would not have the lands around the rim of the Black Sea, which would be held by Slavic and Turkic folks until you got to the Caucus, where Georgia and Armenia would be.  To the North would be the Rus. 

Parthia would hold the lands of the Sassinid Empire - recaptured from the Muslims - and so likely be slightly wider and shorter, running from the Euphrates valley to the Indus Valley, but not extending North beyond the south half of the Caspian Sea.  The Capital at that time would likely be Ctestiphon aka Baghdad.

Technical note : Cities tend to exist in a location for a reason - Food/Water/Resources, or frequently the center of trade routes and/or head of navigation or natural harbor.  Ctestiphon was the capital from 58BCE-651CE, and is near Babylon, an earlier capital.  After the Muslim conquest, it fell into decline. Baghdad was founded just up the river in the 700s by the Abbasids, who never came to exist here, so Ctestiphon probably continued as a city until 1258CE, when the OTL Sack of Baghdad happened, and everyone was killed and supposedly cute little pyramids were made...of skulls....  So in N7 that is when the Capital moves to Ispahan, and Baghdad was probably founded after that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_Empire#/media/File:Sassanian_Empire_621_A.D.jpg

So the Mongol timeline I've worked out -mixing the various real invasions with the altered bits of history.

Critically, the Byzantines can not be so weakend as to allow the Ottomans to conquer them, and Parthia needs to survive. Luckily both Parthia and Byzantium use heavy mailed cavalry and fortification, which - after initial disasters and once they learned Mongol tactics- did turn out to work decently in Europe.

Here, I suggest they were met by a stronger Parthian Empire, which was able to defend the mountainous southern portions of the Empire, shunting the Mongols east into India, and west through Armenia/Georgian into the Byzantium Empire. The Byzantines would hold Anatolia, sending the Mongols riding south into the Muslim Levant, and North into the Russian Steppes to Sack Kiev, and ravaged Eastern Europe.

With this timeline, over a roughly 55 year period, the Mongols are victorious and push into Parthian and Byzantium territory, but are more limited in success. Historically Persia (The Khawarzian Empire at that time) had been subdivided into several different realms at this time, so N7's stronger united Parthia would be tougher. The attempted Christian-Mongol alliance against the Muslims becomes a short Byzantine-Mongol alliance against the Parthians. This gives the Mongols the assist to push the Parthians South out of their way, and means the Mongols have free rein to push North and West across the steppe as historical.


1205-1279 : Mongol Conquest of China. Chinese engineers and gunpowder will be critical to the invasions of other realms.

1218-1220 : Ghenghis Kahn seized Otar, 600km East of the Aral Sea, from the Khwarzan Empire, proceeds to invade and conquer the Khwarzan Empire. The capture of Otar and the massacre of the people of Bukhara follow.

1219-1221: Ghengis Kahn invades Parthian Tansoxiana. Parthian forces attempt localalized defenses and are isolated and overrun. The invasion sees the sack of Samarkand, Urgench, and Gurjang, with the populations of Urgench and Gurjang massacred or enslaved and the cities destroyed. The Mongol armies surged west and south, sacking Termerz, Balhk, Merv, and the massacre of the people of Merv. The cities of Nishapur, Herat, Bamian, Toos and Mashad are sacked, with Northern and Northeastern Parthia under Mongol control.  The siege of Bamian claims the life of Ghengis's grandson, and the city is razed and the people of the city and it's surroundings massacred.  Mongol forces chase the local Parthian army east into the mountain passes, where the Parthians are victorious at the battle of Parwan.

1222-1327 : Mongol invasions through Kabul and Khandahar into the Indian subcontinent. 

1222 : Mongol invasion along the southern edge of the Caspian Sea, commencing with the siege and sack of Rey and raids into Byzantine, Parthia, Armenia and Georgia.

1223-1236 : Mongols invasion and conquest of Volga Bulgaria, on Northern edge of Caspian Sea.

1222-25 : Mongols send raiding parties deep into Parthia.

1225-1230 : Byzantine – Parthian war. Taking Advantage of Parthia's struggles in the east, Byzantine allies with the Mongols and attacks Parthia  near Ahlat in eastern Anatolia, retaking it. Parthia is decisively defeated at the Battle of Yassi Chemen in 1230.   

1226  : Byzantine – Georgia War : Byzantines attack the Kingdom of Georgia, suprising Georgian forces at the Battle of Garnia. Georgian forces are defeated and the court is forced to relocate to the east, where it falls to the inrushing Mongols. 

1227 : Death of Ghengis Khan.

1225-1229 : Renewed Mongol offensive into Parthia.  Parthia holds a line NW to SE north of the cities of Herman, Isfahan and Kerman, forcing the Mongols to cross deserts and enter the mountains to attack them. Parthian raids seek to disrupt the Mongols, while setting fire to grasslands to deny them forage.  Mongol forces are firse defeated in 1226 at the battle of Kal Gusheh when they are defeated in the Dash-I-Lut desert. The second major defeat comes in 1229. The mongols advance from their base at Tehran, sacking Qom and laying Siege to Isfahan.  The city has had years to prepare, and when the Mongols stall before the gates of the prepared city, they find little forage available while their supply lines and siege train are repeatedly attacked. As winter arrives, they begin to starve as winter arrives. Withdrawing, the Parthians shadow the Mongols at a distance. As the Mongols reach the River Qom, and advance down the vale, the fords are held against them and raiders dart out of the mountains alongside. Nearing Tehran, the Parthian Army from Herman is arrayed, blocking the Mongol retreat. The Mongols, trapped in the river valley, hungry and exhausted, are brought to battle by both Parthian armies and crushed in the January 1230 Battle of Qom.

1230 : Parthia offers tribute and buys off Mongols, who turn north. Parthic reaches a peace agreement with Byzantium and cedes the Anatolian territory gained in 1074.

1231-1259 : Mongol Invasion and conquest of Korea

1236-1242 : Mongol invasion and conquest of the Rus, sacking and destroying most cities.

1240-1241 : Mongol invasion and conquest of Tibet

1241 : Mongols under Subatai launch invasion & raids of Hungary, Bohemia and Poland. King Wenceslaus I of Bohemia sucessfully fends off the Mongols at the mountain passes.  Battles of Legnica and Mohi leave Mongols victorious and they plunder the Hungarian plain.  Half of Hungarian population slain or enslaved. Raids into Roman Austria, the northern & eastern Adriatic, and the Dalmatian provinces. The Mongols are defeated by the Romans in the Province of Croatia at the Fortess of Kliss, by Split.

1242 : Mongol conquest of Bulgaria, raids into Dalamation province of Serbia.

1242 : Great Khan Odegai dies, Mongol armies retreat to contest throne.

1241-43 : Byzantium -Mongol War : Emboldened by the Mongols engagement on many fronts,
Byzantium rebuffs demands for tribute, leading to invasion by the Mongols. Mongols sack city of Karin. Byzantium calls on help from remaining portions of Armenian and Georgian Kingdoms. Alliance is decisively defeated in Battle of Kose Dag.  Georgia and Armenia lost, along with portions of eastern Anatolia. Byzantium promises tribute.

1253 : Mongol invasion of Yunnan

1257 : Mongol invasion of Vietnam

1258-60 : Second Mongol invasion of Poland & Galicia, cites of Krakow, Lublin, Zawichost, Bytom sacked, city of Sandomierz razed and people killed.

1259 : Mongke Khan dies in siege of the Song's Daioyu Castle, the Mongol Empire Fragments. The Khanate of the Golden Horde forms.

1260-1280 : Mongol Civil Wars

1258-71 : Byzantine-Mongol-Parthian War : Mongols attack Byzantium and invade Anatolia. The Parthians, seeing an opportunity, declare war and attack the Mongol flank. The Mongols head south from Anatolia, sack Parthian Baghdad (Ctesiphon) in 1258, then slowly conquer Byzantium Syria including Alleppo and  Damascus and parts west. In 1260 the Mongols are defeated by the Byzantines at the battle of Ain Jalut.

1264-65 : Mongol raids through Bulgaria and attacks Byzantium Thrace.

From 1260-1271 Byzantium and Parthia conduct separate campaigns against the Mongols, reclaiming the lands lost in 1221-1243. Despite a 1265 Byzantine defeat in Thrace, The Kingdoms of Georgia and Armenia are liberated, and split between the two Empires. Parthia reclaims the Southern Caspian, and western Afghanistan.  The Transoxiana lands beyond Merv, Northeast of the Kara Kum Desert, remain Mongol, as does the corridor to India of Samarkand, Bahlk, Kabul, and Khandahar. (Basically, Byzantine and Parthia split the historica Ilkahnate lands while the Chagatai Khanate persists to later become Timur's Empire).

1274,1281 : Mongol invasions of Japan.

1284, 1287 : Second & third Mongol Invasions of Vietnam.

1259-1291 : Mongol invasions ravange the Principalities of Eastern Europe, from Poland to the Province of Serbia. Imperial Roman, Byzantine, and Parthian organization, strategy and tactics evolve to allow the Armies of those states to repulse the Mongols battle, while aggressive fortification removes the ability of the Mongols to strike deep and raze cities easily.  Mongol invasions of the Hungarian plain in 1285, Poland in 1287 and the Serbian province in 1291 all result in defeats of the Mongols.

1338-1350 : Black Death. Starting in Kyrgyzstan, Spreads to China and follows trade routes west, devastating India and Parthia, and reaches Byzantium by 1347. In Spain and England by 1348, Germany and Scandinavia by 1349 and Russia in 1351. Deaths varied  30%-60%, German settlements drop 23% in a century. Plague reoccurs in outbreaks, killing 10-20% at times.

Note : The Black Death needs to get to the New world, likely via the Vikings, and so do it's damage a 150 years before the Europeans get there.

1369 : Timur (Timberline) conquers Turan, makes Samarkand his capital.

(unfinished)

End Mongol Invasions,

start Walter's Timeline, etc

Still a work in progress

[snip]

I've thrown together a rough approximation of what Im imaging the Roman timeline to be. Thoughts welcome.

Pre 260AD: Rise and Rule of the First Empire. History relatively unaltered up to this period.

260AD -  ~400AD: Decline and Breakup of the First Empire. Slow decline of the Empire, lessened in severity by different leadership. The Western Empire does not loose as hard and is able to stop the barbarian hoards short of ransacking the Italian peninsula.

~400AD - 800AD: The Slumber. Rement of the Western Roman Empire effectively takes the place of Italian Kingdom during this period. Events in France and England as described elsewhere.

801AD - 880AD: Rise of the Roman-Frankish, or Second, Empire. With the unification of the Roman and Charlemagne thrones, the Second Empire expands to take back by force or diplomacy most of France and eventually England.

880 - 1096: Pax Francia. A period of relative peace and stability. Most fighting is by proxy with the Christian kingdoms in Iberia against the Umayyad Caliphate.

1096 - 1099: First Crusade. Efforts launch to wrest control of the Holy Land from Byzantium in response to the Great Schism.

1100 - 1204: Wars of Christendom.  A series of wars, crusades, and religious disagreements that culminate with the establishment of Iberia as an independent state and the eventual sack of Constantinople.

1205 - 1314: Decadence of the Second Empire. Fat and rich with conquest, the Second Empire enters begins to rot from within.

1315 - 1328: Succession Crises. Multiple untimely deaths across many noble houses send succession disagreements spiraling up the chains of inheritance until the Imperial throne becomes entrapped after the death of Nero V.

1329 - 1453: Internal Wars and Fall of the Second Empire. Series of conflicts fought between noble houses to resolve succession. Resulted in loss of influence and breakup of Frankish territory. Conflict creates a large disconnect between potential heirs and the Imperial throne that the Second Empire falls apart.

1454 - 1460: Establishment of the Second Republic.

1461 - 1521: Rule of the Second Republic.

1522 - 1526: Overthrow of the Second Republic and Establishment of the Papal Empire.
1527 - 1618: Pax Papal

1618 - 1648: Thirty Years War.

1649: Supplanting of Papal Empire with Third Empire.

1650 - 1790: The Third Empire

1790 - 1803: Bonaparte Rebellions

1804 - 1819: The Regency

1820 - 1830: Imperial Reconciliation and Conquest of Pannonia

1831 - 1835: Establishment of the Imperial Roman Republic.

1836 - Present: Imperial Roman Republic

[Walter]

1205-1453 sounds like an interesting period for Rome. :) *makes a list of additional evil aspects of the Roman Empire* ;D

[snip]

I thoght the phrase Papal Empire would have got you northerners all hot and bothered.

[Walter]

Yes, how 'mighty' Rome has fallen. With that, the Norse Catholic Church will have lots and lots of material for propaganda use. :)

[snip]

One question I think we need to answer sooner rather than later here is this; When was the last general European war? I hijacked Napoleon for internal stuff without really thinking about this, but starting up the Blueprint for Armageddon series on Dan Carlin's Hardcore History got me wondering. At this point, unless we want to jig something in for unifying the Green nation as an analog for the US Civil war that everyone sorts of meddles in I'm not sure we have a general war since the 1600's and the Thirty Years War.

Thoughts o timeline benders?

[Walter]

At the moment, for the Northern Kingdom I have the Sixth Mongol-Norse War (1860-1866, roughly US Civil War with the addition of 1860 and 1866) as the last major War that the Northern Kingdom was involved in. There may have been a few small skirmishes between then and now. There is also the Longford County War (OTL Lincoln County War), though that is not really between nations as would be the various conflicts in the Wild West/Wild North (depending on your position in Europe) between Northern Kingdom lawmen and outlaws.

[snip]

Would you be opposed to expanding that war to be something where we could reasonably involve enough people to make it a General European war? If you want to keep it more localized I understand.

[Walter]

Well, I kinda want to keep the 1860-1866 conflict as a conflict with the Mongolians... so if nations have a beef with the Mongols or just like to rough them up a bit, they are welcome to join the party. :D

If you want to make it a bit more between nations, perhaps something around the Franco-Prussian War time frame?

[snip]

Maybe I need to approach this question differently. Is there any flaw with not having a general European war since the Thirty Years War? I'm picking that one out as it seems to be the latest one in which everyone gets involved (Rome/Iberia vs Norse/Swedes/Germans vs Byzantines (with a side affair for the Parthians)). I agree we can put something in the Franco-Prussian war area, but Im not sure trying to cram in a general conflict at that point is the best move.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Nav7 stuff is planned more for the end of the week:)

Originally, I wanted the last war with Byzantium to be in the time frame of the Franco-Prussian war,  1872, and the lost Mesopotanium provinces would be my Alsace - Lorraine as more modernly equipped Byzantine forces kick my armies rear ends.

However, 1872 is not 50 years ago, which I believe is still the time line for a fully conquered province. I was going to reread that part before posting, but if I recall correctly, doesn't that mean any territories gained after 1860 don't provide full income?

So to me that means any big war and lost territories needed to be > 50 years ago. So I was going to suggest to Jefgte that the last Parthian-Byzantine war would be in the slot for the Crimean war 1853-1856.
Historically this was Russia vs Ottomans, England, France. With no Russia, it could be more of a free for all.

I would also suggest that for the same 50 year reasons, it usurps the place of the 1860-66 Mongol wars.  Instead expand the Crimean conflict for that Decade, maybe have it be a series of wars.

Then I was going to have a private war with some Indian state in the 1890s, and discover my 'commerce raider' and torpedo boat navy does little against heavy coast defenses and no great maritime trade. Thus spurring the conversion to a standard battlefleet.

[snip]

However, 1872 is not 50 years ago, which I believe is still the time line for a fully conquered province. I was going to reread that part before posting, but if I recall correctly, doesn't that mean any territories gained after 1860 don't provide full income?

Will hit this before replying in full. That rule, as far as I intended it, only applies to territories that change hands after game start. However the map gets to 1 Jan 1910 is how it gets there.

[snip]

So for reference, I've compiled the below list of "major" conflicts after the Thirty Years War. Link for those interested in parsing though. I've eliminated from this list anything that would be considered internal based on 1910 boundaries or anything deemed arbitrarily "small" (Involves minor states). Anything with a start date prior to 1648 is not included.

1652–1674 Anglo-Dutch Wars (I debated about this one, but figure the Norse could fill in)
1663–1664 Austro-Turkish War
1683–1684 War of the Reunions
1683–1699 Great Turkish War
1688–1697 Nine Years' War
1701–1713 War of the Spanish Succession
1714–1718 Ottoman-Venetian War
1718–1720 War of the Quadruple Alliance
1740–1748 War of the Austrian Succession
1756–1763 Seven Years' War
1853–1856 Crimean War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War

I think our best bet for a General European Conflict would be in the mid 1700s. There is enough going on there that we could pull enough threads together to get everyone involved. Throw in enough little brushfire conflicts and I think we can get most references sorted out.