Nav 7 History

[Walter]

And what about Henricus Tudoris and the Ecclesia Anglicana? Are they going to cause troubles in the Roman Empire and turn it into a four-way religious war? :)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Catholics vs Muslims... general conflagration!!!
Roman + Iberia + Norse vs Parthes + Byzantine

I expect Byzantine is Eastern Orthodox,
Rome should be Catholic.
Iberia proper should be Catholic, it will depend on the player if North Africa/Morroco is still Muslim, or has been forcibly converted to Catholicism.

The Norse and Swedes, it's a bit up to their players. 
From the little that was posted I'm expecting Germanic-Swedish history to be roughly the same since the time of Charlemange to Gustavus Adolfus. That is why I kept the Lothair name for the Germanic bits which break away- keeps history the same. So, it would be up to that player if he wants the Protestant reformation, I would suggest he do that.

Though it might be fun if the Norse, through a Kievian Rus link, were Othodox as well :)
But perhaps they will follow the old Gods :)

As for Parthia....it's not Christian.
It is majority Zorastorian.  There is a strong Jewish minority, and a sizable Nestorian Christian community, and some Hindi and Buddihist and some followers of Mithras.  The right of Jewish and Christian faiths has been protected since the treaty of Navarsak in 484AD.  However, since the Muslims persecuted those of other faiths, those that had taken up the Muslim faith were forcibly converted when the territory was reclaimed.  Say 70% Zorastorian, 10% Nestorian Christian, 5% Jewish, 5% Hindi, 5% Buddist, 3% Mithras, 2% other.



Edit :
Alternative Crusade Scenarios :
Jefgte had indicated he didn't want the Muslims to kick Byzantium out of the Middle East as historic. As a result this timeline has Byzantium hold Antioch north, and then reclaim all the way to Mecca by 760AD.

IF however, Jefgte wanted the Crusades to be against the Muslims, it would be pretty simple to have Byzantium loose control of the Middle East for 400-500 years and the Crusades be the reconquest.  The fun version would be the Catholics retake the Holy Land, then the Orthodox kick the Catholics out, leading to the 4th Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders....as historical.

Alternately, the Byzantiums could loose control of the Middle East, the Parthians could retake it, and the Crusades could be to kick Parthia out.

Personally, I like the Catholic-Orthodox version as the one with the most potential for future game play.

[Walter]

Though it might be fun if the Norse, through a Kievian Rus link, were Othodox as well :)

I considered them to be Catholic and initially Novgorod as Orthodox which would be a bit of a problem if there was Catholic-Orthodox strife so they might have become catholic once the Norse moved in to counter the Pagan Horsemen from the East.

When reading your post, I was wondering if I should make some Norse Church which would have split off Catholicism as a result of the crusades. So the North would have more friendly and more tolerant Norse Catholics instead of a bunch of crazy and bloodthirsty Roman Catholics like in the South of Europe. :)

Personally, I like the Catholic-Orthodox version as the one with the most potential for future game play.

(edit: forgot to quote the above bit. Silly me)
Sounds like you want post 1910 crusades. :)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Personally, I like the Catholic-Orthodox version as the one with the most potential for future game play.

Sounds like you want post 1910 crusades. :)

I think having a background of mutual conflict will make proxy wars more interesting.
Hopefully the possibility of conflict will mean folks won't take long building holidays until tech level rise to the point they want to build ships.
Hopefully it also means two large powers with a mutual borders don't suddenly decide to become fast friends, but rather continue to view each other with a bit of hostility.
I think it's far more interesting if Parthia and the Byzantines have been at odds for 1700 years, rather than make nice and say "you take India, I take Africa" and then Byzantine and Rome gang up on the Swedes. :)

As for Zorastorian vs. "People of the Book", I find it intriguing as there's only a couple million adherents today, but it was going strong until the Muslim invasion. It's very old semi-monotheistic with apparently some environmentalist subtext. Which I plan to apply to forestry policy, causing upland management to get attention starting in the 1500s. That will result in Persia/Afgahnistan not loosing so much of their forest cover. Apparently those regions had many more trees and generally more greenery.

[Jefgte]

I see Byzance with 3 different zones;
- Greece, Macedonia and Byzantium (Turkey) => Orthodox
- To the north, Romania, Bulgaria, Crimea => catholic
- The other major part of the territory, Palestine, Syria, Egypt and Arabia => Muslim.
With such a mosaic of religions, religious freedom is indispensable. The Holy Places, Jerusalem and Mecca, free of access.

----------------
I hardly conceive in my spirit, to face the Catholic countries, Roman, Iberia ... and to be attacked behind by the Parthians.

Jef

[Kaiser Kirk]

----------------
I hardly conceive in my spirit, to face the Catholic countries, Roman, Iberia ... and to be attacked behind by the Parthians.

Jef

Oh, we'll attack from behind, from the side, from the front. Our nations have been fighting since before your nation existed :)

One of the things I'd like to arrange for you is a war in the mid-1800s where Byzantium captured Baghdad again, which would be our last major clash.
Then I'll think I will make my history include having clashed with the Hindi NPC in the late 1890s.

However, Snip's design is for conflicts to be mostly colonial, which should be doable.

Unfortunately, something came up this weekend, so I won't have the free time I expected.
That makes the Iberians and Norse allies you should be looking too.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The first map was my try at 6 regions and then putting modern cities on it. Which proved hard to figure out.
The regions are all within a province of each other in size.

I will make a final decision this weekend, but I'm leaning towards the 2nd map, which has 4 regions.
The Byzantine March is consolidated and has a number of ancient peoples, while the Coastal Provinces are unified.
The Transoxania and Afghan areas are unified, and the Persian/Parthian Core provinces are consolidated. 
It makes decent sense, and from a meta game perspective I see advantages but I'm not yet seeing significant disadvantages.

First Map :

Second Map :

[Walter]

* rel.xls (28.5 kB - downloaded 0 times.)

Not sure why i ever bothered and wasted my time with working on the idea of the Norse Church when no one bothers to look at this post and its attachment...

[Jefgte]

Not sure why i ever bothered and wasted my time with working on the idea of the Norse Church when no one bothers to look at this post and its attachment...

Sorry but it is perhaps too early to wrote about Religions when much of the players are working on the Ships & Plan.
Religions of our countries are in our head  but not formaly wrote.

Jef  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

* rel.xls (28.5 kB - downloaded 0 times.)

Not sure why i ever bothered and wasted my time with working on the idea of the Norse Church when no one bothers to look at this post and its attachment...

Sorry you feel you wasted your time.
I thought it a reasonable idea, but didn't even notice there was an attachment.
As Jefgte says, my attention is focused on getting my nation going. I was planning on circling back to history once I get my turn out.

[snip]

I've redone the Adminstrative Units of the RIR to be more size consistent.



Red: Italia
Orange: Wessex-Londinium
Yellow: Francia
Purple: Aquitaine
Cyan: Pannonia

Italia: Representing the core of the First Empire after the Contraction, Italia remained one of the most powerful regions in the world. After the unification of the Frankish and Roman states by Charlemagne, Italia became the seat of the Second Empire. Holding the seat of government and the de-jure centers of power for most of the next 1200 years, Italia's significance has waxed and waned, but never fallen.

Francia: From first founding by Charlemagne to its devastation in the Bonaparte Rebellions, Francia held the de-facto centers of power from the beginnings of the Second Empire until the end of the Bonaparte Rebellions. Despite the splitting off of Aquitaine and the loss of its coastal territory following the Internal Wars of the 1300-1400's, Francia remained both the economic and military powerhouse of the various formal Roman states until the establishment of the Roman Imperial Republic in 1830

Wessex-Londinium: Created with the fusion of the Kingdom of Wessex and the City-State of Londinium after the Second Empire reestablished itself in Britain, Wessex-Londinium occupied the whole of Roman territory in Britain up to the ancient boundary of Hadrian's Wall until it gained additional territory after the Internal Wars. Where the Industrial Revolution found first root in Roman territory, the only thing keeping Wessex-Londinium from economic domination of the Republic is its limited land area.

Aquitaine: Split off from Francia after the Internal Wars as a way of curbing Frankish power, Aquitaine enjoyed a quiet existence until the beginning of the Bonaparte Rebellions. When Bonaparte first began raising troops, Aquitaine was the primary source. Playing on the feeling that Aquitaine was being used a a pawn by Francia in the Empire's power struggles, Bonaparte was able to gather enough support to deal a nasty defeat to the Frankish nobility. With the rebellion ultimately culminating in the brutal end of both the Emperor and Bonaparte himself, Aquitaine was looked down on even more in the years following. While wounds have healed in the last 100 years, Aquitaine remains a hotbed of potential revolutionary activity.

Pannonia: A merger of a disorganized bag of territories after the establishment of the Imperial Republic in 1830, Pannonia is home to a rapidly growing industrial base. With the combination of established fixtures like steelmaking and the new oil fields, Pannonia is where citizens of the empire go to strike it rich. For those who succeed, the new wealth continually injects itself into the high-society of the Republic with sometimes interesting results. Those who do not succeed litter the streets. Within the last few years, Pannonia has seen several forward-thinking social programs get enacted to help the downtrodden.

Sidenote, the Internal Wars are meant to be roughly analogous to the various wars between France and England in the Middle Ages.

[Walter]

As Kirk mentioned reading my Norse Catholic doc and I removed it last week, I guess I will have to repost it otherwise he has nothing to read. :)

As initially mentioned (prior to deletion), in the spreadsheet I tried to mix some aspects of Catholicism and Protestantism that are different from a list I found on the net (http://www.diffen.com/difference/Catholic_vs_Protestant) to make Norse Catholicism. As I did it fairly quickly, I hope I did not mess it up by mixing it in such a way that things may contradict.


Some additional things I have come up since...

The Norse Catholic Church was established as a result of the ongoing hostilities of the Roman Catholic Church and the Crusades that were launched by the Roman Catholics against those who had adopted the teachings of the Orthodox Church.

By the time of the Third Crusade (1189–92), the North had grown tired of Christians fighting among each other although Norse Crusaders were still sent to help reclaim extensive amounts of territory for the Kingdom of Jerusalem. When the new Pope Innocent III called for a Fourth Crusade in 1198, the North had enough of it.

William Malveisin, Bishop of Glasgow, called upon other Northern Bishops for a gathering and during the Meeting of the Bishops in 1199, the Northern Bishops denounced the barbaric Roman form of Catholicism and brand Innocent III as a traitor to Christianity. The Northern Bishops cast off the shackles of evil and severed all ties with the Roman Catholic Church with the establishment of the "True Catholic Church" (preaching "True Catholicism"; sometimes called the "Pure Catholic Church" and which would later be called the Norse Catholic Church), a Church of "True Christianity" and devoid of Roman evil and corruption.

The Fourth Crusade is marked by the capture and brutal sacking of the city of Constantinople and it was this event that was often used to convince the masses of the evilness of "Those Heretics following the Roman way of Brutality and Corruption". The activities of the Inquisition in the South were also used as evidence to show the evilness and the monstrous barbarity and cruelty of the Southern Branch of Catholicism.

As he was the one who called for the Meeting of Bishops, William Malveisin was elected as the first Pope of the True Catholic Church and became Pope Valentine II. During his reign, Pope Valentine II had many meetings with the Bishops of the North during which many of the aspects of Norse Catholicism were established, including the use of English as standard language instead of Latin and establishing Edinburgh as seat of Papal Power.

Popes of the Norse Catholic Church... I looked on wiki at various people listed as Bishops from Norway, Ireland and Scotland and filled them into the list below. As English is the standard language, the given names of the popes will always be given in English instead of Latin. It is possible that I may have made a mistake somewhere with the numbering of the popes but I hope it is correct and it should fit in with the list of RC Popes prior to 1200.

Valentine II ------ 1200-1238 ----- William Malveisin
Boniface VIII ----- 1238-1249 ----- Robert the Chaplain
Martin IV --------- 1249-1256 ----- Peter Ramsay
Nicholas III ------ 1256-1258 ----- William de Bondington
Eugene IV --------- 1258-1259 ----- Cormac Ó Luimlín
Benedict XI ------- 1259-1271 ----- Robert of Ross
John XXII --------- 1271-1275 ----- Seoán Ó Laidig
Adrian V ---------- 1275-1280 ----- Seoán Ó Máel Fogmair
Celestine IV ------ 1280-1285 ----- Thorfinn of Hamar
Paul II ----------- 1285-1293 ----- Henry of Holyrood
Gregory IX -------- 1293-1297 ----- William Fraser
Urban IV ---------- 1297-1309 ----- Matthew Crambeth
Paschal III ------- 1309-1325 ----- Thomas Dundee
Victor IV --------- 1325-1329 ----- Henry Cheyne
Stephen IX -------- 1329-1335 ----- John Lindsay
Martin V ---------- 1335-1339 ----- Jón Halldórsson
Nicholas IV ------- 1339-1347 ----- John Egglescliffe
Jacob I ----------- 1347-1351 ----- James O'Kearney
Gregory X --------- 1351-1355 ----- John Raith
John XXIII -------- 1355-1371 ----- Alexander Stewart
Theodore III ------ 1361-1376 ----- William Rae
Boniface IX ------- 1376-1398 ----- Alexander Kylwos
Zachary II -------- 1398-1413 ----- John Dongan
Paul III ---------- 1413-1418 ----- Alexander Waghorn
Paschal IV -------- 1418-1421 ----- Gilbert Greenlaw
Benedict XII ------ 1421-1440 ----- Henry Leighton
Adrian VI --------- 1440-1446 ----- John Cameron
Victor V ---------- 1446-1450 ----- John MacSeonin Burke
Celestine V ------- 1450-1454 ----- William Turnbull
Stephen X --------- 1454-1474 ----- Olav Trondsson
John XXIV --------- 1474-1481 ----- Thomas Lauder
Theodore IV ------- 1481-1507 ----- John Fraser
Zachary III ------- 1507-1515 ----- George Brown
Paul IV ----------- 1515-1528 ----- Hugh Inge
Adrian VII -------- 1528-1532 ----- Gavin Dunbar
Martin VI --------- 1532-1538 ----- Olav Engelbrektsson
Gregory XI -------- 1538-1542 ----- Mogens Lauritssøn
Eugene V ---------- 1542-1545 ----- Hans Rev
Urban V ----------- 1545-1547 ----- Gavin Dunbar
Paschal V --------- 1547-1560 ----- Edward Staples
Boniface X -------- 1560-1577 ----- William Gordon
John XXV ---------- 1577-1596 ----- John Lesley
Victor VI --------- 1596-1613 ----- David Lindsay
Benedict XIII ----- 1613-1632 ----- Peter Rollock of Pilton
Stephen XI -------- 1632-1639 ----- Alexander Lindsay of Evelick
Jacob II ---------- 1639-1647 ----- John Maxwell
Gregory XII ------- 1647-1663 ----- Thomas Sydserf
Nicholas V -------- 1663-1676 ----- Henry Guthrie
Theodore V -------- 1676-1679 ----- John Paterson
Paul V ------------ 1679-1687 ----- James Aitken
Zachary IV -------- 1687-1700 ----- Dr. Andrew Bruce
Adrian VIII ------- 1700-1726 ----- John Clement Gordon
Stephen XII ------- 1726-1739 ----- David Freebairn
Martin VII -------- 1739-1743 ----- Thomas Rattray
Theodore VI ------- 1743-1746 ----- William Dunbar
Paschal VI -------- 1746-1758 ----- Robert Clayton
Eugene VI --------- 1758-1776 ----- John Alexander
Urban VI ---------- 1776-1787 ----- Anthony Blake
Stephen XIII ------ 1787-1809 ----- William Abernethy Drummond
John XXVI --------- 1809-1832 ----- Ranald MacDonald
Gregory XIII ------ 1832-1846 ----- Andrew Scott
Nicholas VI ------- 1846-1847 ----- David Moir
Celestine VI ------ 1847-1852 ----- Patrick Torry
Jacob III --------- 1852-1869 ----- James Francis Kyle
Boniface XI ------- 1869-1875 ----- Alexander Penrose Forbes
Paul VI ----------- 1875-1889 ----- John MacDonald
John XXVII -------- 1889-1893 ----- John McLachlan
Martin VIII ------- 1893-1902 ----- Dr. Bartholomew Woodlock
Eugene VII -------- 1902-1903 ----- Hugh Willoughby Jermyn
Benedict XIV ------ 1903-19xx ----- James August Smith

[Kaiser Kirk]

As Kirk mentioned reading my Norse Catholic doc and I removed it last week, I guess I will have to repost it otherwise he has nothing to read. :)

Thanks, that saves me some searching time once I finally get to my weekend and have that elusive "free time" thing again...supposedly...
:)

[Jefgte]

Byzantine Empire 1910     as I could imagine   :)

During the last century, Byzantine Empire had made some conquests, particulary in the south, Egypte & a half part of Arabia.
Since the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869, The « Sultan of the Sublime Porte » had made some modifications in the Constitution to have more politic, economic & religions stability by the "Three Acts".

First Act
was the opening of the Suez Canal to all commercial ships & warships of any countries.
The Canal is declared « Open & a no War zone ».

Second Act
was the consequence of revolutionary religious disturbances.
« Religions are declared free. Official religions are: Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish & Muslim»
« Holy Places are open to the practice of worship ».

Third Act
The respect of all traditions of the new territories by the election of a regionnal parliament which drew up the grievances to Byzance.
The Sultan declares himself « attentive to all his peoples ».

The economic, industrial and military development allows new Sultan, inducted in 1900, to have a certain stability in the different territories.

Diplomatic relations with neighbors, Parthians and Romans are minimal and just correct.
Borders surveillance are reserved to Special Border Troops. The Line Army is not authorized to approach within 2km of the borders without General Staff authorization.

[Walter]

was the opening of the Suez Canal to all commercial ships & warships of any countries.

Surprises me that with all the past conflicts between them and the Romans, the Byzantines would allow the Romans through the Suez.

« Holy Places are open to the practice of worship ».

Hmmm... This makes me wonder if I should make some point in Norse Catholicism to encourage (but not force) Norse citizens to go on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land at least once in their lifetime... Would be a good reason why big passenger liners are built without the need to move large numbers of migrants across the Atlantic.

The 3rd class aboard liners with the The Pilgrim Class. Only for a few Crowns to the Holy Land. :D

The Sultan declares himself « attentive to all his peoples ».

Well... that is what he claims, but is he truly attentive to all his peoples? Only news and stories posted will tell once we start.