Parthian Empire

[Kaiser Kirk]

Dreadnaught Sizes : I have the Tiamats building, and they are effectively USS Pennsylvania-class, the next class, the Baphumet I have ~10 different designs for, and will probably be the upper size of the current 20knt Parthian line.  They just take up too much production for one ship. So I expect to only build 2, and either a couple BCs, or aviation ships of some sort.

So yeah, I thinking pocket BBs and/or rebuilding Pre-dreads as a means of Colonial Station ships and controlling the Strait of Hormuz.  Rather than the Skandinavian ships which were not blue water, these would be, and so could function against trade routes locally as well. Only a front line combatant could take them out, and they would have to find them. If I give them shallow draft, they may be able to go somewhere the big DN/BC can't. Like Konigsberg hiding up the river in German East Africa :)

Aircraft : Something I noted in Wesworld is people jumped into aircraft carriers with more enthusiasm than due. The aircraft carriers of the 1940s were tremendously different than the carriers of the 1930s or 1920s in capability.

When one looks at the Doolittle trials against the old USN and SMS ships, what really comes home is that the planes- with picked pilots against stationary ships- missed a lot. The bombs did little damage when they hit.  Even Ostfriedland, in bad condition, not set for battle, and with no damage control, took quite some time to sink.

Dive bombing did not even really become a "thing" until the 1930s.
According to a book on carrier development I have, even things like getting large sorties off and coordinated became problematic.  Time to warm up and arm the planes, spot them, fly them, then circle waiting for the others, have fuel to strike, fight, come back, circle waiting to land, and land.  Interwar carriers were often very close to the wargames, and subject to being sunk by surface combatants, or air attack. 

Saratoga and Lexington, with their huge airgroups helped both the learning curve and explore what was possible - but those were essentially accidents, being treaty conversions.

We have 15-20 years before planes really become effective against warships.
They can operate against merchants before that, but I think that would be as popular as unrestricted Submarine warfare.

Even then, bad weather and visibility meant carriers rarely operated together, as they were too vulnerable and you did not want to loose all at once.
With no radar, incoming raids gave little time to scramble fighters off any one deck.  At night, marauding cruisers could do you in.  Or you could be like HMS Glorious off Norway.

[Kaiser Kirk]

So I have multiple variations of what I call Tortoise or Bantam - Pocket BBs.  Some I modify up to 25-26 knots for that current speed niche that seems out there.  I tend to call those Light BCs or Large Armored Cruisers. Then I add armor and guns and they are no longer small....

So here's another try.  Gun layout a bit like Sverige. Nice and small. Good Torpedo defense, very maneuverable. Can use local coal fuels. Shallow draft. Enough armor to stand off any AC, or even old Predreads. Deck is proof at all current and near-future gun ranges.  Main battery dangerous to all.  Slow.

Tortoise, Parthian Coast Defense Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   14,857 t light; 15,963 t standard; 16,885 t normal; 17,622 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (456.04 ft / 442.91 ft) x 88.58 ft x (23.72 / 24.59 ft)
   (139.00 m / 135.00 m) x 27.00 m  x (7.23 / 7.50 m)

Armament:
      6 - 14.37" / 365 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,421.98lbs / 645.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 6.50" / 165 mm 45.0 cal guns - 138.89lbs / 63.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 45.0 cal guns - 138.89lbs / 63.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
      14 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1886 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      3 raised mounts
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 10,575 lbs / 4,797 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.06" / 230 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   190.42 ft / 58.04 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.81" / 46 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   22.67 ft / 6.91 m

   - Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   6.89" / 175 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   5th:   0.24" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks: 3.74" / 95 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.06" / 230 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,041 shp / 14,205 Kw = 19.00 kts
   Range 7,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,659 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   739 - 962

Cost:
   £1.472 million / $5.886 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,989 tons, 11.8 %
   Armour: 5,684 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 2,028 tons, 12.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 384 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 1,330 tons, 7.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,813 tons, 10.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 128 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 775 tons, 4.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,705 tons, 33.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,028 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 703 tons, 4.2 %
      - Hull below water: 86 tons
      - Hull void weights: 75 tons
      - Hull above water: 120 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 198 tons
      - Above deck: 224 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,399 lbs / 13,335 Kg = 19.8 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.635 / 0.639
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Aft deck:   27.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   18.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,644 Square feet or 2,754 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 828 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.43
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Minimum Parameters :
USS South Carolina used for length (AB XY) : 137m
USS Nevada used for beam with TDS and triple 14" : 26m
Depth of Soerabaja and Mexican shelf  : 7.5m DL

Since only A / Y, little shorter acceptable, +1 m to beam for individually sleeved guns.

Secondary guns are arranged in hull steps, so that 2 casements on each side can fire forward, the other two aft, and all on the beam. With the 2 superimposed and 4 corner guns that gives 7 bearing forward, 8 on the beam or 7 aft.


Fuel :
75% Oil
25% Oil sprayed coal (22.5% coal, 2.5%oil)

Range :
24hrs at 20knots : 392t, 480nm
14 days at 10 knots : 445t,  3,360nm
total : 837t + 10% reserve : 921t.

Misc weight:
70t - construction reserve
199t - Fire Control
25t - LR radio
38t - Cooling
160t - 2x 40 MTB or Marine Launches
120t - Marine Platoon
38t - Extra Pumps
40t -  2 bow tubes, 2 tubes each side in stern between armored deck and shafts.
6x18"  tubes, with 4 torps / tube = 24 torps x 2t = 48t



Decks
+5.5 : Weather deck 30mm
+3.0 : Gun deck
+1.5 : Top Armor Belt
+0.5 : Crown Main Deck, Armor deck 65mm
-2.0  : Bottom Main belt, Bottom Protective Deck, 1st Deck
-5.5  : Engineering Deck (3.5m high)

[Kaiser Kirk]

The opportunity cost of moving that vessel's speed up to 23.25 knots is lengthening the hull to 162m, a 6:1 L:B, and pushing light disp to 18k.  Seakeeping drops to 'good seaboat'.
Which still isn't bad.

[Jefgte]

Like all Parthian battleships, its speed must be 20kts.

Increase speed, 25-27-29 kts will make it go to BC. Use 2xT3x345 to save weight ... interresting options...

[Kaiser Kirk]

Like all Parthian battleships, its speed must be 20kts.

Good point.
While it's not intended to work with the fleet, that is a good option to have.

So what I did was upped the speed to 20knots as suggested.
That reduced seakeeping below 1.50, so I cut down the stern - like the real South Carolina to the gundeck at +3.0m above WL.
That freed up a lot of weight.
So I extended the TDS from waterline to above WL, meeting the crown of the protective deck.
I also added 15mm to the belt and conning tower armor  and 5mm to the deck.

Edit : I forgot to modify the upper belt to account for it not covering as much now that the rear is cut down a deck. 
The old upper belt was 76.95 as shown.
However with the aft deck cut down, 12 of the 57% length is 1 deck not 2.
Which means 60.75 meters covers from 5.5m freeboard to the 1.5m top of the upper belt, while 16.25m is just from 3.0m to 1.5m.
So 60.75 x 4m, and 16.25 x 1.5 m = 267.375 m2, divided by the length of 76.95 gives an average height of 3.48m.

Which should free up a little tonnage to put somewhere else. Looks like  it would allow the main belt & Conning tower to be boosted to 255mm.

This was one of many "tinkering" designs, but may wind up a ship I actually build. Unless someone brings one of their new Dreadnaught style ships a very long way from home, it would be dominant in the colonies. Even against a Dreadnaught style the guns would give it a chance.

My 25-27kt ships wind up spiraling up in size unless I really restrict weaponry or armor. I am more likely to do a German style BC than a British. 

Tortoise II, Parthian Coast Defense Ship laid down 1912

Tortoise III, Parthian Coast Defense Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   14,800 t light; 15,906 t standard; 16,832 t normal; 17,573 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (456.04 ft / 442.91 ft) x 88.58 ft x (23.72 / 24.60 ft)
   (139.00 m / 135.00 m) x 27.00 m  x (7.23 / 7.50 m)

Armament:
      6 - 14.37" / 365 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,421.98lbs / 645.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward evenly spread
     1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
Edit : the setting here is one "Centerline-fore deck" and one "Centerline-aft deck"
      6 - 6.50" / 165 mm 45.0 cal guns - 138.89lbs / 63.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1899 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on sides forward
      8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 45.0 cal guns - 138.89lbs / 63.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 double raised mounts
      14 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1886 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      3 raised mounts
     4 x Twin mounts on sides forward
      4 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 10,575 lbs / 4,797 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   190.42 ft / 58.04 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   11.42 ft / 3.48 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.81" / 46 mm   252.46 ft / 76.95 m   24.31 ft / 7.41 m
note : This is above the WL, meeting the bottom of the protective deck
   - Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   6.89" / 175 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   5th:   0.24" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks: 3.94" / 100 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.04" / 255 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,229 shp / 17,329 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 7,860nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,667 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   738 - 960

Cost:
   £1.493 million / $5.974 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,989 tons, 11.8 %
   Armour: 5,696 tons, 33.8 %
      - Belts: 2,078 tons, 12.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 411 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 1,159 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,905 tons, 11.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 142 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 946 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,466 tons, 32.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,032 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 703 tons, 4.2 %
      - Hull below water: 86 tons
      - Hull void weights: 75 tons
      - Hull above water: 120 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 198 tons
      - Above deck: 224 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,125 lbs / 11,850 Kg = 17.6 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.633 / 0.637
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forward deck:   45.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Aft deck:   12.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   18.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.58 ft / 4.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,589 Square feet or 2,749 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.14
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Minimum Parameters :
USS South Carolina used for length (AB XY) : 137m
USS Nevada used for beam with TDS and triple 14" : 26m
Depth of Soerabaja and Mexican shelf  : 7.5m DL

Since only A / Y, little shorter acceptable, +1 m to beam for individually sleeved guns.

Secondary guns are arranged in hull steps, so that 2 casements on each side can fire forward, the other two aft, and all on the beam. With the 2 superimposed and 4 corner guns that gives 7 bearing forward, 8 on the beam or 7 aft.

The old upper belt was 76.95 as shown.
However with the aft deck cut down, 12 of the 57% length is 1 deck not 2.
Which means 60.75 meters covers from 5.5m freeboard to the 1.5m top of the upper belt, while 16.25m is just from 3.0m to 1.5m.
So 60.75 x 4m, and 16.25 x 1.5 m = 267.375 m2, divided by the length of 76.95 gives an average height of 3.48m.
Fuel :
75% Oil
25% Oil sprayed coal (22.5% coal, 2.5%oil)

Range :
24hrs at 20knots : 392t, 480nm
14 days at 10 knots : 445t,  3,360nm
total : 837t + 10% reserve : 921t.
Note : did not recalculate this from I, should be close enough for ship design purposes

Misc weight:
70t - construction reserve
199t - Fire Control
25t - LR radio
38t - Cooling
160t - 2x 40 MTB or Marine Launches
120t - Marine Platoon
38t - Extra Pumps
40t -  2 bow tubes, 2 tubes each side in stern between armored deck and shafts.
6x18"  tubes, with 4 torps / tube = 24 torps x 2t = 48t



Decks
+5.5 : Weather deck 30mm
+3.0 : Gun deck
+1.5 : Top Armor Belt
+0.5 : Crown Main Deck, Armor deck 70mm, top of TDS
-2.0  : Bottom Main belt, Bottom Protective Deck, 1st Deck
-5.5  : Engineering Deck (3.5m high)
-6.93 : Bilges, double mine bottom (1.43m deep)

[Kaiser Kirk]

So this was an effort at a from-scratch 26knt vessel. 
Again, near the most recent AC ranges, but faster than anything older out there, esp anything that can kill it easily.
Though the lower armor means a Byzantine AC would have a shot. I don't like that aspect.

Usually I wind up converting from a CDBB trial.
My actual BC designs, - the Mongols, Scythians, Huns, Timurs, etc are faster and bigger.

I used the guns and turrets in current development, which meant no triple 300mm.
It winds up slower than Rocky's with about the same belt and weaponry.
But it's also 15% smaller, can refuel from merchant stocks, and has slightly better deck armor. 

lacks the marines and 40t craft of the Tortoise III.

Overall, I think I like the Tortoise III better.  Perhaps I'll build that instead of a follow-up Knight II ACR series.
But first I think I need to USE the 300L41s for their planned purpose of refitting old predreads.

Lynx, Parthian Colonial Defense Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   16,842 t light; 17,683 t standard; 18,644 t normal; 19,414 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (558.12 ft / 551.18 ft) x 78.74 ft x (23.75 / 24.58 ft)
   (170.11 m / 168.00 m) x 24.00 m  x (7.24 / 7.49 m)

Armament:
      6 - 11.81" / 300 mm 41.5 cal guns - 870.83lbs / 395.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1910 Model
     4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 raised mounts
      14 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1874 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      3 raised mounts
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 6,205 lbs / 2,815 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   14.40 ft / 4.39 m
   Ends:   2.56" / 65 mm   192.88 ft / 58.79 m   14.40 ft / 4.39 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.81" / 46 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   27.89 ft / 8.50 m

   - Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   6.50" / 165 mm      9.06" / 230 mm
   2nd:   2.56" / 65 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.56" / 65 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks: 3.74" / 95 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 8.27" / 210 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 64,217 shp / 47,906 Kw = 26.25 kts
   Range 7,450nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,731 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   797 - 1,037

Cost:
   £1.434 million / $5.736 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 992 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 6,354 tons, 34.1 %
      - Belts: 2,202 tons, 11.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 669 tons, 3.6 %
      - Armament: 1,283 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,074 tons, 11.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 125 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,614 tons, 14.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,437 tons, 34.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,802 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 445 tons, 2.4 %
      - Hull below water: 140 tons
      - Hull void weights: 100 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 80 tons
      - Above deck: 125 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,197 lbs / 13,243 Kg = 35.4 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.633 / 0.637
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -9.84 ft / -3.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  25.89 ft / 7.89 m,  23.75 ft / 7.24 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  23.75 ft / 7.24 m,  21.62 ft / 6.59 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.62 ft / 6.59 m,  21.62 ft / 6.59 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.62 ft / 6.59 m,  21.62 ft / 6.59 m
      - Average freeboard:      22.54 ft / 6.87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,731 Square feet or 3,041 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 699 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.76
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Date too early for machine gun - 5th battery

Range :
480nm @20kts : 388
3360nm @ 10knts : 485
Subtotal : 873t
+10% : +87t
Total : 960t

Presuming Nav7 1910ish pens would be like the 6/50 CPBC gun data here  : http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_Britain.php

If I want a vessel that should exclude QF rounds, then I need 4" at battle ranges, and 7.4" really close in. With a max of 9".  Deck armor I need <1.2" out to visual splash range.
So the 100mm/30mm upper armor works fairly well.
The main belt the 6.5 works when backed by that 65mm protective deck.  I sink it to -1.8m below WL, which may be deeper than needed for the expected opposition - shell diving is roughly 5xdiameter, and with 1910 fuses they won't make it far.  Over course there's wave period and roll and the things I don't know how to figure out...

[Jefgte]

...Overall, I think I like the Tortoise III better.  Perhaps I'll build that instead of a follow-up Knight II ACR series...

I do not think that Parthe's investments in slow pocket BBs (20kts) are relevant.
Old BBs (eventualy rebuilt) can be used in the colonies & modern BBs in the battle line.
Pocket BCs (25-27-29kts) are more promising for its multiple uses to come ...

Just my opinion..

[Kaiser Kirk]

My plan is to follow your lead on rebuilds, and Parthia is currently developing guns for regunning the Predreads.
So I agree that is the first step.

However, depending on how other nation's fleets develop, I see a role for these slow armored ships.
That may change if there are a bunch of ships that can kill them for little risk.

But for now, I'm thinking that one of these hiding in the shallows of the Zambezi delta, or the Zanzibar archipelago, or up the river in Freetown, or prowling the Caribbean from Jamaica, Trinidad,  Sumatra, and Brunei might be difficult for other navies to counter without sending main battleline units far from home and support.

Anyhow, thank you for the input disagreement is good, otherwise we would all have the same designs :)

[Desertfox]

Despite being the one responsible for both the first aircraft carrier and the first massed aircraft strike on surface ships back in N-verse 3.0, I have to agree with you. It will be a long time before aircraft carriers start replacing battleships, WW just had too much foresight. My N-verse aircraft carrier was based on a light cruiser hull and was primarily a scouting platform with limited counter-scout and torpedo bombing capabilities. That said I can see carriers becoming useful early on in a Ark Royal vs Bismark scenario, slowing down raiders or even battlelines.

Ironically, I would argue that WW heavy carriers would end up being even less effective than OTL ones, since a side effect of them and of hindsight was that WW battleships and cruisers ended up with very heavy AA secondaries.

On to the pocket batleship, while it looks like quite a beastly coast-defense ship/modern pre-dreadnought, I think the lack of speed really limits you, and if it gets caught by a battleship, it won't last long. 27kts might be too much, but perhaps somewhere around 23-25 kts? Enough to avoid battleships while not compromising too much? Also since this is mainly a coastal ship I think you can live with reduced seakeeping. How about going with a 305mm or 345mm main armament? That might buy you enough to get mroe speed without compromising too much armor. And I just realized that was basically the first design you posted...

[Kaiser Kirk]

On to the pocket batleship, while it looks like quite a beastly coast-defense ship/modern pre-dreadnought, I think the lack of speed really limits you, and if it gets caught by a battleship, it won't last long. 27kts might be too much, but perhaps somewhere around 23-25 kts? Enough to avoid battleships while not compromising too much? Also since this is mainly a coastal ship I think you can live with reduced seakeeping. How about going with a 305mm or 345mm main armament? That might buy you enough to get mroe speed without compromising too much armor. And I just realized that was basically the first design you posted...

Actually, when you're slow, seakeeping is "cheap", and if you're conceding the choice of range and number of guns to the 'other guy', I figure good shooting at long range is an option you should have.

Overall, I tossed these out because Rocky's offering was neat, and these were a different take.

Ultimately I'm planning on rebuilding many older cruisers and Pre-dreads. That will occur before I go down the road of building these. At that time I'll look at the strategic situation and who's fielding what, and make some decisions.

As for what guns I stick on them, the Triple 365L40  is just what's on the Tiamat class as the latest and greatest. Parthia's gun range has T3 345L45 turrets that were on many of the Tiamat designs, but lost out to the lower MV but higher shell weight L40s. So I view that as developing a 1905 tech /L45 and an /L40 and then comparing how they worked. While they never got mounted, I really planned on using them right up until live, so I put them in my artillery list.

Parthia is currently developing some new 300L41.5s currently, but only in twin turrets because they have to fit in the barbettes of the old PDs.  As they are a newer tech level, they have a decent MV despite the length.

As for speed, both you and Jefgte have that same critique, which is making me consider the faster versions.
I *have* probably like 20 iterations of these ships, some are 20, some 23, then 25-27. 

Conceptually, the way starting BP was set up, it was meant to allow an IJN style fleet. I rather expect folks to 'afford' 8 battleships + other ships. 

At the current size, it costs me about a big cruiser... but it takes a lot of armor to stop a 365mm shell. The type of armor generally only on Dreadnaughts.
If war breaks out, I've been looking at it as unlikely someone would detach such an important fleet unit as a Dreadnaught or Lion-style BC and send it to the colonies to hunt these down.
...oh and probably some escorts to fend off my local MTB squadrons.   

Now Jefgte IS building the AC5 class, which could kill these, but they are also his biggest warships and close to twice the size.  In a war, is he really going to send one of his only 2 new big BCs from Aden across the Indian ocean to hunt one of these among the shallows of their home waters, where he can ground out, or be ambushed by MTBs, or ...oh a 365L40 CAN punch holes in his belt at 10,000m... and more. Then limp a probably damaged ship home?

So, I get the speed argument, and it IS valid in ways...  I'm just dubious major fleet units can be spared to hunt these....but anything less probably would loose.

[Desertfox]

While going thru all the auxiliaries, I couldn't help but notice the Whales. While their intent is to be fleet-support, their capabilities make them quite capable AMCs and very scary raiders. They mount 8x120mm with 1912 FC, a thick torpedo bulkhead, and are capable of 22knots and 16knots cruise, while being able to deploy anywhere in the world without support. They can outrun just about any pre-turbine ship, including most battleships and armored cruisers, and outmatch most of the smaller cruisers, very few ships can actually hunt them down.

Basically, I would like a ruling as to whether AMCs are allowed or not under the auxiliary rule. Do they count as warships?

[Kaiser Kirk]

While going thru all the auxiliaries, I couldn't help but notice the Whales. While their intent is to be fleet-support, their capabilities make them quite capable AMCs and very scary raiders. They mount 8x120mm with 1912 FC, a thick torpedo bulkhead, and are capable of 22knots and 16knots cruise, while being able to deploy anywhere in the world without support. They can outrun just about any pre-turbine ship, including most battleships and armored cruisers, and outmatch most of the smaller cruisers, very few ships can actually hunt them down.

Basically, I would like a ruling as to whether AMCs are allowed or not under the auxiliary rule. Do they count as warships?

The wording of the rule is

produce a cheap warship.

If the vessel appears like it will produce something that can be used that way, then it may not be eligible for the cost savings.
but I stated something like if you wanted to build a 20,000ton, 24knot ship, that might be ok.

Yes, it may be able to fight some vessels, which is why 2% weapons & armor are allowed. The bigger the ship, the more guns that translates to.
In this case, it's mostly invested in a TDS which would do no good in a gun battle, but may mean 1 torpedo hit is not fatal. On the surface, hopefully it can stand off a marauding destroyer-sized vessel.

If you're paying 3000tons for a ship with no effective armor mounting 8x 120mm guns...  it may be fast so it can move quickly around a far-flung Empire, but it is far slower than contemporary cruisers, and since it's merchant-built can't take the punishment....that's not cheap.

But if it's an attempt at a cheap warship, it's a failure.

[Desertfox]

So AMCs based on merchant hulls are ok, as long as they meet the 2% rule?

[Kaiser Kirk]

So AMCs based on merchant hulls are ok, as long as they meet the 2% rule?

I'm not going to give you a clean answer.
I am going to evaluate the cases as they appear.


Let's use the Whale as an example.
I could have built that different.
Called it a 'liner hull'.

I have just built long range raiders - the Vayu and Saka classes.
Say I want a ship to support those. - that would be a legit role right?
A Saka+ Vayu are 13,000 tons, and my largest AC, an Asdar is 15000.
So I need 1500 tons of fleet support.
Plus I need them to avoid counter raiders and be able to quickly deploy anywhere from Kalifern to Jamaica.
So long range, and high sustained speeds.

So instead of a 12000 ton Whale class with a 5:1 LB, a BC of 0.625, a draft of 6.25- i.e. capable of most ports... and with 4500 tons of fleet support,

I build a 12000 ton Stuergon class with a 8:1LB, 180x20, drop the draft to 8m, drop the Fleet Supply to 1500tons in hull and drop the bulky electric drive.
I add box protection for the magazine, and also upgrade the armanent to match those of the cruisers I'm supporting, 6x 165mm, with 25mm shields.
Now comp hull is at 2.15, because I've deleted 3000 tons of misc wieght, but gee, I only need 1500, so I up the engines 3000tons.
However the ship drops below 1.0 seakeeping just after 32 knots, so I leave it there. I still have 1.18 comp hull.
So I add fuel, bringing range up to 14500,  which drops the light tonnage - and so the cost I pay to 11,200.
Which saves me 800 tons, which because of the mercantile build is $0.2 and 0.2BP.

I present my new Raider Support Vessel.
11,200tons, 8:1 LB,  6x 165mm, minimal armor, 32knots, 16knt cruise for 14,500 and supports 15,000 tons of ships.

Cost : $2.8, and 2.8BP.

even without much armor, at $2.8 that would be a cheap warship.

Then I should as mod, shoot that down.

[Kaiser Kirk]

So peeking at 1914, I find I have a veritable plethora of designs I'd love to build, but a ton of demands on my resources as well.

One ship I've been trying different ideas for is a 'Coast Guard'  sloop. Something to patrol the shorelines, venture up the rivers, launch a police action if needed, but also serve as a sentry vessel.

This is where my ideas have gone - and remind me I need a new howitzer.

Note on Fire control : If there was a choice of cheaper amounts for "just spotting' , or simpler FCs, I'd do it. There aren't so she'll have 1912. Which is heavy because there's a plotting room somewhere in that ship, and a spotter up top...

Mackrel, Parthian Coastal Patrol Cutter laid down 1914

Displacement:
   460 t light; 492 t standard; 562 t normal; 617 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (162.81 ft / 160.76 ft) x 23.79 ft x (8.76 / 9.46 ft)
   (49.63 m / 49.00 m) x 7.25 m  x (2.67 / 2.88 m)

Armament:
      2 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
      1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 40.0 cal gun - 44.09lbs / 20.00kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1889 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      1 raised mount
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1,300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 156 lbs / 71 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   101.80 ft / 31.03 m   3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   0.98" / 25 mm   101.80 ft / 31.03 m   6.89 ft / 2.10 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.59" / 15 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 0.98" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,016 ihp / 1,504 Kw = 16.84 kts
   Range 4,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 125 tons (23% coal)

Complement:
   57 - 75

Cost:
   £0.051 million / $0.206 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 24 tons, 4.3 %
      - Guns: 24 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 73 tons, 12.9 %
      - Belts: 44 tons, 7.9 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 24 tons, 4.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 123 tons, 21.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 142 tons, 25.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 18.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 98 tons, 17.4 %
      - Hull void weights: 2 tons
      - Hull above water: 32 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 36 tons
      - Above deck: 28 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     626 lbs / 284 Kg = 11.9 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.587 / 0.597
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Forward deck:   31.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  8.37 ft / 2.55 m
      - Aft deck:   32.00 %,  8.37 ft / 2.55 m,  8.37 ft / 2.55 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  8.37 ft / 2.55 m,  8.69 ft / 2.65 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.16 ft / 2.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,763 Square feet or 257 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 160 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.77
      - Longitudinal: 3.39
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Warning: Shell weight too heavy3rd Battery

The Coastal Patrol vessel is equipped with
a pair of 120mm guns forward.
Aft, a 118mm HOW is mounted in X, well clear of the equipment on the aft deck.
Four old twin Gardner 15mm handcranked MGs provide dock security.

Armor :
0.5 to 2.6 : Upperbelt covers from weather deck down to waterline.
0.5 to -0.5 : main belt coverage

Misc Weight :
1t Void
0t - 100nm SR radio
3t - 1912 FC
25t - Hulesmeyer remote detection system.
10t - 5t Motor launch, fits 16men (4t)  + engine
1t - Enhanced ventilation
32t - 16 Marines (Section)
25t - Minesweeping gear on aft deck

Decks
+2.6 : Weather Deck
+0.1 : First Deck / Armor deck 15mm
-2.51 : Engineering