Italian Speculative Ships

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 01:49:32 PM

So, my build program is pretty full through 1906. Between the battleship, the 4 cruisers and refitting most of my older cruisers, followed by other refits.... my budget is small.
So the next round of Italian vessels will be those with 1909 engines.

For battleships, I need to develop a new main gun, and I've chosen a 300mm/45, which weightwise will allow them to be retrofitted to my current 305/40 barbettes.

For Cruisers, I'm considering two basic sorts. A "scout/raider" with long legs and a hefty punch, and a "hunter" to defend the battleline from torpedo attacks.
My Destroyer/Torpedo boats I'm torn between fielding as true destroyers at 500tons, or large ocean going torpedo boats at 250-350tons. With my budget the smaller is more attractive.
One feature of many of these efforts is concentrated forward fire. Ironically, this was very difficult for director firing due to the addition of compensating for pitch and yaw in addition to roll, but probably ok for the continuous aim firing that <9" guns could use current battle ranges.
Then there's the perceived need for something to replace my Brigs as both school vessels and long range ships. Sailpower has been useful to the Italians.

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 01:52:57 PM

This is the Marie Adelaide.
Primary mission would be Cruises along Africa, Anti-Piracy on distant station, or showing the flag around the world. Marines and launches, as well as a high sprint speed would facilitate that.
Secondary mission would be school training ships.
Tertiary would be long-range cruiser in times of war. With Sailpower and coal, these ships can operate around the globe, refueling from merchants, and have secure areas to hold captured crews.
The masts and sails mean they would never do well in a fight with a modern cruiser, but they have enough speed for a long chase, and the 180mm can punch through all non-AC armor, giving them a chance if caught.

Maria Adelaide, Italian Frigate laid down 1905 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   2,513 t light; 2,619 t standard; 2,761 t normal; 2,874 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (390.88 ft / 387.14 ft) x 38.71 ft x (12.89 / 13.29 ft)
   (119.14 m / 118.00 m) x 11.80 m x (3.93 / 4.05 m)

Armament:
2 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
8 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 74.0 cal guns - 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 2,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 547 lbs / 248 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.36" / 60 mm   271.00 ft / 82.60 m   3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Ends:   2.36" / 60 mm   116.11 ft / 35.39 m   3.28 ft / 1.00 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

- Hull Bulges:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 1.18" / 30 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,348 shp / 9,958 Kw = 23.60 kts
   Range 2,350nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 255 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   189 - 247

Cost:
   £0.206 million / $0.825 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 86 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 381 tons, 13.8 %
     - Belts: 118 tons, 4.3 %
     - Armament: 27 tons, 1.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 220 tons, 8.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 661 tons, 23.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 918 tons, 33.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 248 tons, 9.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 468 tons, 17.0 %
     - Hull below water: 183 tons
     - Hull void weights: 13 tons
     - Hull above water: 160 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 75 tons
     - Above deck: 38 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,449 lbs / 1,564 Kg = 19.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 12.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 17.59 ft / 5.36 m, 15.12 ft / 4.61 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 15.12 ft / 4.61 m, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
     - Aft deck:   40.00 %, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
     - Quarter deck:   10.00 %, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m, 14.30 ft / 4.36 m
     - Average freeboard:      13.80 ft / 4.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,986 Square feet or 928 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 284 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.45
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Names :
Gaeta
Maria Adelaide
Duca di Genova
Barbone
San Giovanni
Governolo
Guiscardo

QuoteSail vs. Steam: As the 19th century progressed there was a transition of warships from sail propulsion, to steam backup and finally to all steam propulsion. The switch over to steam comes because of two reasons. First is that ships can steam all the time in all weather conditions. The second is that rigging is a fire hazard and source of possible debris to block the ships deck. Of course a ship with sails does not need to go to port to coal and doesn't require the ship engine to be maintained. So sailing ships will remain common in civilian service for a great deal of time.

To simulate the weight of a ships sail gear and the ballast to counter the torque effects the mast has on the hull misc. weight will be used. A portion will be below the waterline misc. weight and the other as above the deck misc. weight both found on the Weapons tab for SpringSharp3.

There are two types of sail plans that ships can follow. The Full Rigged Ship (3 masted ship) or Brigantine / Brig (2 masted ship).

A full rigged ship can do up to 2/3 of SS hull speed (not ship engine speed but speed based on hull) Displacement costs being 1.5% misc weight above hull for Full Rigged Ship and 6.5% misc weight below deck. On a 6,000 ton ship this comes out to 480 total misc tons.

A Brigantine can do 1/2 of SS hull speed. Displacement costs being 1% Misc Weight above hull and 4% misc weight below deck. On a 6,000 ton ship this comes out to 300 total misc tons.

With a brigantine rig, this vessel can do 9.84knots. Cost is 25t above deck, 100t below deck
With a full rig, this vessel could do 13.18 knots cost 37.5 above deck, 162.5 below deck

This vessel is full rigged
The Italians belive the full rigging, the modest bunker (157t) and small size / draft means the vessel can have nearly unlimited range, calling on any anchorage world wide. All while not belching a cloud of coal smoke on the horizon.

The provision of Turbine engines allows sprint speeds greater than any vessel except the very newest warships.

The two heavy 180mm main guns, and the 4-gun batteries of 90mm guns gives it the ability to fight off the typical light cruisers of the world.

Armor :
The citadel is expanded fore/aft 12m (adjusted bow/stern %) to ensure critical systems fit below.

A protective deck, crowning at +1.42m and descending to -1.06m is fitted.
The deck has a 30mm crown, and 65mm slopes over the citadel, decreasing to 25mm forward over the torpedo flat, and 20m aft over the shafts.

Decks :
+3.86
+1.42
-1.02
-3.46

Miscellaneous Weight :
162.5 below : Masts
20 below : 2 bow torpedo tubes, 10 torpedoes, sited below protective deck
100 in hull : quarters for Marine platoon / brig
20 in hull : Extra supplies
40 in hull : Brig
40 on deck : 2 x 10t motor launch
35 on deck : Short/long range radios

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 01:55:50 PM

This is the ocean-going torpedo boat version, my Lanceri class with 1909 turbines and some tweaks. For me, the tonnage is very affordable, but the armanent compares poorly to some of the other designs floating around.

Lancieri III, Italia Destroyer laid down 1902 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   275 t light; 285 t standard; 329 t normal; 365 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (206.69 ft / 203.41 ft) x 19.36 ft x (7.55 / 8.06 ft)
   (63.00 m / 62.00 m) x 5.90 m x (2.30 / 2.46 m)

Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1901 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
4 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.09lbs / 1.40kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 94.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
Weight of broadside 37 lbs / 17 kg

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.12" / 3 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.12" / 3 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,880 shp / 5,132 Kw = 26.25 kts
   Range 2,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 80 tons (92% coal)

Complement:
   38 - 50

Cost:
   £0.036 million / $0.144 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 2.1 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.4 %
     - Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 174 tons, 53.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 89 tons, 26.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 54 tons, 16.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 1.2 %
     - On freeboard deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     94 lbs / 42 Kg = 4.2 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 9.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.388 / 0.402
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.26 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   22.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     - Aft deck:   33.00 %, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
     - Average freeboard:      8.70 ft / 2.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,404 Square feet or 223 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.11
      - Overall: 0.57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

3rd Battery Shell weight too light

These little ships rely on 1 x 100% coal boilers, and 3x 10% oil spray, for 92% coal.
The 90mm gun is "superimposed" to allow clear fire over the forecastle. The 3mm 'armor' represents a spray shield.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
4t - 4x 450mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" of the forecastle like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear.

Speed with the single coal fire boiler is 15knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done without reliance on expensive oil.

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 02:00:58 PM

This is the next notch up, the Cutlass class. Probably the first true destroyer, she features the two90mm bearing forward, but supplements that with cheek mounted 45mm anti-boat guns.
The latter will chew up true torpedo craft, but are too light for Anti-destroyer type work. That would be considered a design flaw. Not to mention the extremely limited rear arcs of this design.
Two "cheek" torpedo tubes allow forward fire, with a twin set on the fantail.

Cutlass, Italian Fleet Destroyer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   350 t light; 367 t standard; 432 t normal; 484 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (223.07 ft / 216.54 ft) x 19.69 ft x (7.38 / 8.06 ft)
   (67.99 m / 66.00 m) x 6.00 m x (2.25 / 2.46 m)

Armament:
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
4 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.09lbs / 1.40kg shells, 350 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 61 lbs / 28 kg

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 7,970 shp / 5,946 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 3,550nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 117 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   46 - 61

Cost:
   £0.046 million / $0.185 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 11 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.4 %
     - Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 222 tons, 51.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 101 tons, 23.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 83 tons, 19.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 3.2 %
     - On freeboard deck: 4 tons
     - Above deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     118 lbs / 53 Kg = 5.3 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.481 / 0.493
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.72 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 16.17 ft / 4.93 m, 13.71 ft / 4.18 m
     - Forward deck:   22.00 %, 13.71 ft / 4.18 m, 13.71 ft / 4.18 m
     - Aft deck:   43.00 %, 5.71 ft / 1.74 m, 5.71 ft / 1.74 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 5.71 ft / 1.74 m, 6.53 ft / 1.99 m
     - Average freeboard:      9.33 ft / 2.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,675 Square feet or 248 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.49
      - Longitudinal: 1.90
      - Overall: 0.57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Deck heights : engineering deck is 3.66m (12ft), extending above waterline, and forecastle deck is 2.44m (8ft)

Trial Speed : 29.36
Misc Weight :
10t - Short range radio

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 02:05:41 PM

Then there's the 500ton true destroyer I'm considering.
This version has 1905 engines as I though I'd get some built then, likely they won't go down until 1909 engines are available.
This avoids the problem of finding the length for 4x100mm by having 4x90mm..... and two of those are wing mounts like the 45mm in the Cutlass class.
This gives the 4x90mm forward fire for anti-torpedo craft work the Italians want, while avoiding the length problems.
I will admit I'm not sure I gave them enough beam for that, there don't seem to be good analogous designs to work from, and this are simple mount 3.54" guns which aren't that heavy and so shouldn't take much supporting structure to make feasible.

Folgore, Italia Destroyer laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   497 t light; 519 t standard; 595 t normal; 655 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (232.94 ft / 229.66 ft) x 22.15 ft x (9.51 / 10.18 ft)
   (71.00 m / 70.00 m) x 6.75 m x (2.90 / 3.10 m)

Armament:
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
      1 raised mount
     2 x Single mounts on sides forward
4 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 94.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 97 lbs / 44 kg

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.20" / 5 mm     -           -

- Conning towers: Forward 0.98" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,989 shp / 7,452 Kw = 26.47 kts
   Range 2,640nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 136 tons (93% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0.067 million / $0.269 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 17 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 1.9 %
     - Armament: 10 tons, 1.6 %
     - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 324 tons, 54.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 128 tons, 21.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97 tons, 16.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 3.0 %
     - Hull above water: 4 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 14 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     140 lbs / 64 Kg = 6.3 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.46
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 48 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.91

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.430 / 0.443
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.37 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      9.42 ft / 2.87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,194 Square feet or 297 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

3rd Battery Shell weight too light

The Folgore Class of Destroyers are an effort to exploit the turbine technology for further speed. The first true Destroyers rather than Torpedo Boat Destroyers, they are Larger, faster, and better armed, they sacrifice some sea keeping in an aknowledgement that they will not be expected to operate beyond the Med.

These little ships rely on 2 x 100% coal boilers, and 6x 10% oil spray, for 92.5% coal.
There is sufficient fuel for a 10 day journey, with a 10% reserve.

The guns are arranged with the B mount over A, and two cheek mounts, giving 4 guns bearing forward, and 3 on either beam, but poor rearward fire.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
4t - 4x 450mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear.
4t - torpedo reloads
10t - Short range radio

Speed with the single 100% coal fire boiler is 18.49knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done without reliance on expensive oil. The top speed is within 1/3rd of a knot of the torpedo boat destroyers.

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 02:10:23 PM

Last is my "Aegis" cruiser.
Again, like the Folgore, sporting 1905 engines but I won't have funds until after 1909 would be available.
This is my reaction to the destroyer charge crippling the British fleet....LOTS of forward firing guns.

2 superimposed on centerline.
2 superimposed on each beam.
That's 6.
Oh, but we have a raised forecastle....so lets put in two forward firing casement guns on each cheek.
that's 10.
Add in more wing and centerline guns firing aft, and we are done.

Armor is only supposed to resist destroyer's 4-5" HE rounds. Not for opposing cruisers. Though when the protective deck rules become official, perhaps I'll convert it to that.

Aegis, Italian Anti-Destroyer Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   3,799 t light; 4,082 t standard; 4,726 t normal; 5,242 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (381.84 ft / 377.30 ft) x 45.93 ft x (15.32 / 16.71 ft)
   (116.38 m / 115.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.67 / 5.09 m)

Armament:
10 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     6 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,698 lbs / 770 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   320.70 ft / 97.75 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 131 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.20" / 5 mm        -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 0.79" / 20 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,951 shp / 14,884 Kw = 23.50 kts
   Range 6,650nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,159 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   284 - 370

Cost:
   £0.432 million / $1.729 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 248 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 424 tons, 9.0 %
     - Belts: 203 tons, 4.3 %
     - Armament: 30 tons, 0.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 179 tons, 3.8 %
     - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,646 tons, 34.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,317 tons, 27.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 927 tons, 19.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 164 tons, 3.5 %
     - On freeboard deck: 129 tons
     - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,763 lbs / 1,707 Kg = 36.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.623 / 0.633
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   10.00 %, 21.36 ft / 6.51 m, 19.52 ft / 5.95 m
     - Forward deck:   49.00 %, 19.52 ft / 5.95 m, 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
     - Aft deck:   36.00 %, 11.45 ft / 3.49 m, 11.45 ft / 3.49 m
     - Quarter deck:   5.00 %, 11.45 ft / 3.49 m, 13.09 ft / 3.99 m
     - Average freeboard:      16.29 ft / 4.96 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 129.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,949 Square feet or 1,203 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 348 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.99
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Gun housings have a splinter shield in front, and weather-proof sides and roof.

The beam guns have the middle raised to allow fire fore & aft.
The "cheek" casement guns in the forecastle give another 4 guns bearing forward, and 2 more on each beam.
This gives 10 guns forward, 9 guns each beam, and 6 guns aft.

Armor is intended to defeat light SAP and HE rounds from destroyers and other cruisers.

Miscellaneous weight : 35t - Shorth & long range radios.

Deck heights :
+5.90
+3.46
+1.02 Top of main belt, 20mm Armored Deck,
-1.42 Bottom of main belt

Kaiser Kirk · August 06, 2016, 07:17:22 PM

Nearly the same cruiser, but with only 120mm guns and the weight savings allocated to 1909 engines.
Due to the much higher speed, freeboard had to change a little...followed by some hull form tinkering...

Aegis, Italian Anti-Destroyer Cruiser laid down 1907(?) (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,997 t light; 4,247 t standard; 4,765 t normal; 5,179 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (395.04 ft / 390.42 ft) x 45.93 ft x (15.32 / 16.42 ft)
   (120.41 m / 119.00 m) x 14.00 m x (4.67 / 5.00 m)

Armament:
10 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 60.63lbs / 27.50kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 121.25lbs / 55.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 1,091 lbs / 495 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.56" / 65 mm   327.95 ft / 99.96 m   10.89 ft / 3.32 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 129 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.20" / 5 mm        -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 0.98" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 2.56" / 65 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34,594 shp / 25,807 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,650nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 932 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   286 - 372

Cost:
   £0.425 million / $1.699 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 164 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 649 tons, 13.6 %
     - Belts: 367 tons, 7.7 %
     - Armament: 27 tons, 0.6 %
     - Armour Deck: 240 tons, 5.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,713 tons, 35.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,436 tons, 30.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 768 tons, 16.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 0.7 %
     - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,973 lbs / 1,802 Kg = 75.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 12.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.607 / 0.616
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   11.00 %, 21.72 ft / 6.62 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
     - Forward deck:   45.00 %, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
     - Aft deck:   39.00 %, 12.99 ft / 3.96 m, 12.99 ft / 3.96 m
     - Quarter deck:   5.00 %, 12.99 ft / 3.96 m, 14.63 ft / 4.46 m
     - Average freeboard:      17.55 ft / 5.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,202 Square feet or 1,226 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 339 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Gun housings have a splinter shield in front, and weather-proof sides and roof.

The beam guns have the middle raised to allow fire fore & aft.
The "cheek" casement guns in the forecastle give another 4 guns bearing forward, and 2 more on each beam.
This gives 10 guns forward, 9 guns each beam, and 6 guns aft.

Armor is intended to defeat light SAP and HE rounds from destroyers and other cruisers.

Miscellaneous weight : 35t - Shorth & long range radios.

Deck heights :

+6.40 Forecastle deck
+3.96 Weather/strength deck
+1.52 Top of main belt, Armored Deck,
-0.92 Second deck
-1.8 Bottom of main belt

Jefgte · August 06, 2016, 07:28:44 PM

I like the refit with new engines.

;)

Kaiser Kirk · August 07, 2016, 12:48:22 AM

Quote from: Jefgte on August 06, 2016, 07:28:44 PM
I like the refit with new engines.

;)

The first of the two cruisers is a really weird design - slow and heavily armed, but that's because it's for a specific role, it only has to be ~3knts faster than the battleline.
The second is far better rounded and could be used in other duties as well.

Walter · August 07, 2016, 01:45:35 AM

I actually used the "half hull speed = 5% normal displacement weight, every additional knot = +1% normal displacement weight, every additional knot above hull speed = +2% normal displacement weight" rule from Navalism whatever-that-version-was for my sailing vessel design. I like that rule better. Still there is not much of a gap there between the two ways as that rule requires 31 more tons on your design and has no breakdown for above deck and below deck miscellaneous weights.

Kaiser Kirk · August 07, 2016, 09:46:04 AM

Quote from: Walter on August 07, 2016, 01:45:35 AM
I actually used the "half hull speed = 5% normal displacement weight, every additional knot = +1% normal displacement weight, every additional knot above hull speed = +2% normal displacement weight" rule from Navalism whatever-that-version-was for my sailing vessel design. I like that rule better. Still there is not much of a gap there between the two ways as that rule requires 31 more tons on your design and has no breakdown for above deck and below deck miscellaneous weights.

Huh, wasn't even aware that version existed.
This one comes from an earlier navalism version also, had to dig it out of the archives. I used it on my Partenope class brigs, which have been useful for all sorts of African missions as they aren't tied to my basing infrastructure.

Kaiser Kirk · August 07, 2016, 03:58:36 PM

So this is definitively speculative, as what other folks do with Armored Cruisers/Frigates/Battlecruisers between now and when I can lay this down may vary a tremendous amount.
However, the core concept is that of the Armored cruiser - big armored scout, big enough guns it can engage at close range and finish off dying battleships, large enough for distant stations.
One of the thing about the historic early BCs, and several of the Frigates being floated about, is weak armor.

My current ACs mount a 240L40 historically fielded by the Austrians. What BigGun said about it is it can penetrate 183mm of armor at 10,000m. While KC armor is tougher, the AP caps coming should offset that...and it should still punch through that much at expected 1908-1910 combat ranges.
Now I had planned on upgunning to a 250-255mm gun, as I like 10" guns for some reason, and the historic San Giorgio used them.
BUT, I recently got and have been browsing a book by Friedman on Naval Gunnery...but it's almost all dense fire control discussion. One of the bits discussed is the limits of the continuous aim system being about a 9.2" gun (at least the Brits thought that) which means I should be looking more at a 9" rather than 10" weapon. Though I could fudge it and say, hey 10" is close.... and perhaps that's why it was considered for Dreadnaught.

Another consideration is I want such large vessels to be torpedo resistant, so a TDS is fitted, as is a considerable anti-torpedo boat/DD battery.

Anyhow, here's a concept ship..size of my current BBs....ugh.

San Giorgio, Italian Armored Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   16,381 t light; 17,359 t standard; 19,183 t normal; 20,643 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (561.40 ft / 554.46 ft) x 72.18 ft (Bulges 82.02 ft) x (24.61 / 26.35 ft)
   (171.11 m / 169.00 m) x 22.00 m (Bulges 25.00 m) x (7.50 / 8.03 m)

Armament:
10 - 9.06" / 230 mm 50.0 cal guns - 462.97lbs / 210.00kg shells, 155 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
     2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 60.63lbs / 27.50kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1901 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 double raised mounts
16 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1901 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,842 lbs / 2,650 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.48" / 190 mm   426.94 ft / 130.13 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   127.49 ft / 38.86 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   426.94 ft / 130.13 m   14.37 ft / 4.38 m
     Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.30" / 33 mm   426.94 ft / 130.13 m   27.49 ft / 8.38 m

- Hull Bulges:
      0.31" / 8 mm   377.30 ft / 115.00 m   18.04 ft / 5.50 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.46" / 215 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      7.48" / 190 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - multiple decks: 2.76" / 70 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 7.48" / 190 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,389 shp / 54,002 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,750nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,284 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   814 - 1,059

Cost:
   £1.558 million / $6.233 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,435 tons, 7.5 %
   Armour: 5,335 tons, 27.8 %
     - Belts: 1,996 tons, 10.4 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 564 tons, 2.9 %
     - Bulges: 79 tons, 0.4 %
     - Armament: 1,174 tons, 6.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 1,407 tons, 7.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 115 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,584 tons, 18.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,679 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,802 tons, 14.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 349 tons, 1.8 %
     - Bulge void weights: 306 tons
     - Hull above water: 8 tons
     - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,036 lbs / 10,903 Kg = 64.7 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.603
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   15.00 %, 25.89 ft / 7.89 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
     - Forward deck:   38.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 20.11 ft / 6.13 m
     - Aft deck:   39.00 %, 20.11 ft / 6.13 m, 20.11 ft / 6.13 m
     - Quarter deck:   8.00 %, 20.11 ft / 6.13 m, 21.75 ft / 6.63 m
     - Average freeboard:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,270 Square feet or 2,719 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 692 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

50mm HE-proof upper belt is capped by 25mm deck.
Torpedo Defense System is 1.5m bulge, hull, 1.5m fuel, 25mm bulkhead, 1.5m DC passage, 8mm bulkhead.

Misc Weight:
35t - Short & long range radio
300t - construction reserve
8t - Stern hull, above armored deck, is gallery for Torpedos, 2 trainable tubes each beam, 8 torpedoes.

Decks

+6.13 Top of upper belt, 25mm protective deck.
+3.69
+1.75 Top of main belt.
+1.25 Crown of turtleback protective deck, Top of TDS system
-1.19 Bottom of turtleback protective deck
-2.00 Bottom of Main belt, top of bulge.
-3.63
-7.13 Engineering deck, 3.5m high

Tanthalas · August 07, 2016, 05:37:20 PM

not a bad ship Kirk, personally I intend to go German style for my "BCs" (not that I have ever made a secret of that), my next gen might have 12" guns (but is more likely to have 11/50s)

Jefgte · August 07, 2016, 06:08:03 PM

Quote...My current ACs mount a 240L40 historically fielded by the Austrians...

You could buy the French 240/48-mlle 1902 dispo in 1906H1
220kg shell HE & AP

;)

Walter · August 08, 2016, 11:18:32 AM

QuoteHuh, wasn't even aware that version existed.

IIRC that is a rule from and older Navalism version than yours.

To me the rule you use is more limited because as it is, it only allows for 3-masted and 2-masted ship with no option for small, single mast vessels or bigger 4-mast (or more) vessels. Also the speed limit with that rule is restrictive. I have a sim for a vessel based on an OTL one which has a maximum speed of 18 knots but that rule would only allow it to go 12 knots. To me the older rule I use, even though it looks to require more weight for the sails and rigging than the rule you use and is not really specific as to how much of the weight should be above the deck and how much of it should be below deck, is the better rule to use (but that is my opinion).

Maybe I should try and look if I could find some stats on Junks which I should sim for China. :)