The Robyn C. Quincey Incident & The Battle of Grand Manan Island: OOC Discussion

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As the title says.

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One note on the battle report. There are a few minor details which have not been hashed out yet, like the names of the destroyers sunk, but these were felt to be very minor and should not inhibit you guys from viewing. Will edit the post at a later date to clear these things up.

[The Rock Doctor]

So this was caused by a Dutch ship, eh?

*Looks suspiciously at Tan*

[Walter]

Got a bit more about the Flinterstar? Where it picked up the cargo and where it was going to deliver it?

The Flinterstar accident was ultimately ruled to be a reaction set off by a careless worker igniting a fire which spread to the stores of fertilizer that she was carrying. This was only confirmed via analysis by submersible of the wreck in 1965, and was not known to either of the commanders.

Not so sure about that analysis. How can they be sure that it was an accident and not a deliberate act? Maybe the result of a mentally ill worker with suicidal tendencies. I would think that the only thing that they may be able to determine for certain is that the explosion aboard the Flinterstar was an internal one and not from some outside source.

So this was caused by a Dutch ship, eh?

*Looks suspiciously at Tan*

Looks to me that Rocky thinks that the explosion was deliberately staged by the Dutch in the hope that the British and the Americans beat each other senseless and give the Dutch an opportunity to reconquer the British Isles. :D

[Jefgte]

... After deliberation, the commanding Royal Navy Admiral on the scene determines that the United States Navy fired on the Dutch ship to cause its destruction...

Why USN fired on the Dutch ship ?

So this was caused by a Dutch ship, eh?

A kind of neutral Danish steamer (N J Fjord)...

;)

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... After deliberation, the commanding Royal Navy Admiral on the scene determines that the United States Navy fired on the Dutch ship to cause its destruction...

Why USN fired on the Dutch ship ?

The USN did not, the ship's cargo of various fixed nitrogen compounds like fertilizer went BOOM! Nether side knew this at the time, and the Royal Navy commander came to the incorrect conclusion that the USN had and deserved to be put in there place for it. The USN commander also thought the Royal Navy had fired, but was not sure enough to preemptively open fire on the Royal Navy.

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Got a bit more about the Flinterstar? Where it picked up the cargo and where it was going to deliver it?

Not yet, the long story stuff has not quite gotten to that point.

[miketr]

German's involvement is in my own news thread.  Its as fluff piece

[Walter]

Not yet, the long story stuff has not quite gotten to that point.

Okay. I thought that it may just have been something dragged in only for that small part of the story and not be mentioned in any follow up parts. Will wait until then before starting to point my finger at the guilty one. :)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ed:

The United Kingdom files formal charges that the Robyn C. Quincy was fishing in a area she should not have been

Questions : Historically in this time period, territorial waters were a cannon shot, or about 3nm. Later that was expanded to 12nm. No one in this time period was suggesting that there were fishing rights extending out 30 miles. Poking about, the Exclusive Economic Zone idea didn't come up until the 1940s.   
1) So...is location of the incident actually 30nm from UK territory?  Or is that a typo and it's 3nm ?
2) If it is 30nm, is the UK asserting a new limit of _____ ??
3) What "International Maritime Court in Germany"...I can't find any reference to that. There was a International Maritime Committee in 1897, which was a bunch of Lawyers, but we haven't even adopted the Hague conventions, much less an International Maritime Court. Granted, in this period, nations would often turn to a 3rd party for Arbitration, like the Russo-Japanese and Teddy. But if there's an International Maritime Court we're all supposed to be abiding by, I'd like to know.
Ed: from the German news, it sounds like the two parties agreed to arbitration, but it was only the German Navy involved, no international Court.

Answers to those will greatly effect the Italian end view, which starts in a quite Pro-Brit spot.

Other comments :
The exploding mercantile vessel is a nice touch and muddies the waters well.

Armored Cruisers : I'm a bit surprised at the relative performance of the Shannon class vs the Brandywines  The extensive and slightly thicker armor (6 vs 5/3) of the Shannon would seem well tested by USN broadsides, given the much heavier USN ROF. 4x 10"/ 2x7" / 7x 5", 5x 3"  vs the UK's 2x 9.2" / 4x 6" / 6x 3". 
It's interesting, in standard battle ranges, 2500-5000m, the RN vessels can probably penetrate substantial areas of the USN vessels with 9.2" & 6" (though the 3" belt) but the USN won't be able  to penetrate the extensive 6" armor with anything but the 10" and possibly the 7".

Main battle :
Speed : So the Americans were pinned to the Oregon's speed of 15.25knts while the RN had a 2.25knt advantage with the Royals at 17.5kts. Barely enough to dictate range, but I guess from an Italian perspective at 19 or with the newer 20+ knots, it is validating for their larger & faster ship choices. Which is a little disappointing to me as I've got several slow-solid designs I've tinkered with. I was thinking of participating in the race for the biggest/fastest/heavier armed for a bit, then concluding the Italian budget can't keep up and produce the requisite numbers, and swapping to well armed turtles.

This is a good test of the extremely heavy if narrow belts of the RN. I've been toying with a heavier belt for the next class, and that looks like a good "lesson".   Again, the Italians might view this as a good reason to keep speed and intermediate guns as a requisite combination. Plus they figure if they are beyond penetrating range, they will be using a great deal of SAP & HE to turn everything above the main belt into a fiery wreck(2)- actually, looking at the the Navweaps data, from 5-5500m they probably could penetrate that upper belt of compound armor. Curious. Actually, with the Majestic being barbette ships and only having an armored shield for the main guns, they'll need to find out why the American's didn't bother with that. It will probably make replacing the old 194mm with the new 180mm more urgent, as the 180mm is far more capable at that battle range.

Torpedo charge :
The torpedo attack is quite interesting. 6 hits from..I dunno how many launches...70+? But these were all detonations, how many dud hits? So hit rate over 10%? Meanwhile 25% of the Destroyers lost.  More destroyers used by the USN than the Italians own. I guess I better work on that. Plus this makes a light anti-DD cruiser I've tinkered with more attractive, while still not the budget for it.  May be a reason to rework the next designs to include an early TDS. Oh, and keep more secondary guns...

Aftermath :
The victory of the Brandywine is not shocking, there are internal Italian recriminations that the St.Bon 2nd Class battleships are basically slower versions of an American frigate, and the goal is to build enough vessels to make them sellable. I was intially curious as to how the Brandywine was able to render a Powerful class in sinking condition from that distance with shallow slant shots bouncing off deck armor, then I recalled that on protected decks, the 4.25" sloped section would be vulnerable and deflect less, and as protected decks are mounted so low (and in) to the water, flooding is an immediate problem. Any vessel of mine that size...well actually those are all battleships...the largest cruiser is the Garibaldi class and  the protective deck is behind the main belt,you have to first penetrate the 180mm belt, then the 60mm slope, meanwhile a Garibaldi can poke as many holes in a  Brandywine as she can poke back :)

Interesting writeup chaps.

From the eighteenth century until the mid twentieth century, the territorial waters of the British Empire, the United States, France and many other nations were three nautical miles (5.6 km) wide. Originally, this was the length of a cannon shot, hence the portion of an ocean that a sovereign state could defend from shore. However, Iceland claimed two nautical miles (3.7 km), Norway and Sweden claimed four nautical miles (7.4 km), and Spain claimed 6 nautical miles (11 km; 6.9 mi) during this period. During incidents such as nuclear weapons testing and fisheries disputes some nations arbitrarily extended their maritime claims to as much as fifty or even two hundred nautical miles. Since the late 20th century the "12 mile limit" has become almost universally accepted. The United Kingdom extended its territorial waters from three to twelve nautical miles (22 km) in 1987.

(2)http://www.russojapanesewar.com/tsushima.html

[The Rock Doctor]

It was an interesting read, and I'll get to my sim report in the next couple of day.

[snip]

Let me hit a couple of these. Note these answers are not directly collaborated with Darman, but they are consistent with what we talked about.

Questions : Historically in this time period, territorial waters

The "fishing in a area she should not have been" line was not necessarily meant to be in reference to territorial waters. I think it would be reasonable to have that refer to the fishing ship purportedly being in the middle of a shipping lane or something like that. Will work on making that a more well defined claim as the story gets fleshed out me.

Ed: from the German news, it sounds like the two parties agreed to arbitration, but it was only the German Navy involved, no international Court.

Will work on fleshing out the "Why Germany?" question later, aside from the OOC wanting of more nations to be involved, but the arbitration idea is where we were looking.

Regarding the results of combat. Darman and I did not want to have to hash out every single ship individually, so we agreed to simulate the losses. This was done by rolling for damage, and then a second sink roll based on the damage. Seeing as we wanted to have a set narrative outcome, we felt it was better than an outright sim the the whole battle. There is a giant spreadsheet with all the rules and numbers we used, as well as the raw results. I can share it if you guys want.

I'm a bit surprised at the relative performance of the Shannon class vs the Brandywines  The extensive and slightly thicker armor (6 vs 5/3) of the Shannon would seem well tested by USN broadsides, given the much heavier USN ROF. 4x 10"/ 2x7" / 7x 5", 5x 3"  vs the UK's 2x 9.2" / 4x 6" / 6x 3". 
It's interesting, in standard battle ranges, 2500-5000m, the RN vessels can probably penetrate substantial areas of the USN vessels with 9.2" & 6" (though the 3" belt) but the USN won't be able  to penetrate the extensive 6" armor with anything but the 10" and possibly the 7".

This was part of why I chose to write the Kearsarge as getting focused down. The dice said Kearsarge got beat into floating scrap, while Newtown got away with minor damage. Had Newtown also ended up heavily damaged or sunk, the writing would have been different. The two Shannon's took some damage, but seeing as we used a % system the dice tell us nothing about the how of that damage. It's something we might hit later, but it was felt that getting out the battle report was more important.

Speed : So the Americans were pinned to the Oregon's speed of 15.25knts while the RN had a 2.25knt advantage with the Royals at 17.5kts. Barely enough to dictate range, but I guess from an Italian perspective at 19 or with the newer 20+ knots, it is validating for their larger & faster ship choices. Which is a little disappointing to me as I've got several slow-solid designs I've tinkered with. I was thinking of participating in the race for the biggest/fastest/heavier armed for a bit, then concluding the Italian budget can't keep up and produce the requisite numbers, and swapping to well armed turtles.

Two key points that I think you missed. First, the Oregon's are overdue for a refit (not that New York needs one anymore) so that 15.25knts is a pipedream. I figured they should have been able to hold ~14knts for a while, so used that as an upper bound. The Royals just had a overhaul, and so were operating normally. Given that, the speed advantage was greater. Second, the conclusion from the USN side is not that slow is bad, but that mixed speeds in the battleline is bad as it allows for the separation experienced. Sure, having a fast homogenous battleline is the best solution, but a slow homogeneous one is better than one split between fast and slow. The sub-18knt ships are felt to be a huge liability to the USN now for that reason. While the jump from 18knts to 21knts will look similar, unlike with the 15knts to 18knts jump the USN is at the forfont of the movement, the USN feels more like they are building a lead, rather than catching up from behind.

Torpedo charge :
The torpedo attack is quite interesting. 6 hits from..I dunno how many launches...70+? But these were all detonations, how many dud hits? So hit rate over 10%? Meanwhile 25% of the Destroyers lost.  More destroyers used by the USN than the Italians own. I guess I better work on that. Plus this makes a light anti-DD cruiser I've tinkered with more attractive, while still not the budget for it.  May be a reason to rework the next designs to include an early TDS. Oh, and keep more secondary guns...

There were 36 destroyers involved, with two tubes a broadside. Assuming they had time to fire one sides, thats 72 fish. 144 if they did get both of. Thats not counting the underwater tubes on cruisers. Its also worth noting that they might all have not hit what they aimed at, but something later wandered into the fish. TDS is going to have to wait on tech, but it's definitely starting a discussion within the USN as to how to avoid it happening to us.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Let me hit a couple of these. Note these answers are not directly collaborated with Darman, but they are consistent with what we talked about.

Appreciate the discussion :)