Italian Vessels

[Kaiser Kirk]

So looking ahead I plan on building a number of torpedo boat destroyers designed to be able to operate in the Med from bases in Italy.

Background
These are the "improved" Lampo, called the Lancieri (Lancer) class, and armed with the new 90mm gun in addition to the older hotchkiss 57mms.
At one point I was going to mount the 65/115s I found one one site about the Italian navy, but digging further into it, I think they left out a decimal point and those are 6.5/115 MGs. Sadly they are already on some vessels I have because I thought they were historical... Ooops.

I'd like to manage 6/year, but don't think I'll quite make it.

Range
Genoa to Taranto is ~760nm, Trieste to Taranto ~560nm, both reachable at 15kts
4 days out is ~960nm at 10knts, or 1920nm round trip for 8 days. These little things are cramped, longer service is unlikely.
But that puts Gibralter, Alexandria and Constantinople in range. Realistically, the 300nm "reserve" means they can't steam all the way there and fight for long, but they should be good for a dash. Eventually I hope to have refueling bases elsewhere in the Med...

notes
These little ships rely on 1 x 100% coal boilers, and 3x 10% oil spray, for 92% coal.

Speed with the single coal fire boiler is 15knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done without reliance on expensive oil.
Trial Speed: 27.01  - fractionally less than the Lampos, the sacrifice to discard the 76/40 and mount the higher MV, flatter firing, double shell weight 90mm seems worth it.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
4t - 4x 450mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear. 

Lancieri, Italia Destroyer laid down 1902 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   275 t light; 286 t standard; 324 t normal; 355 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (180.45 ft / 177.17 ft) x 19.69 ft x (7.74 / 8.26 ft)
   (55.00 m / 54.00 m) x 6.00 m  x (2.36 / 2.52 m)

Armament:
      1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1901 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
      4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 43.0 cal guns - 6.02lbs / 2.73kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1884 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 94.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      Weight of broadside 48 lbs / 22 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 3,816 ihp / 2,847 Kw = 22.25 kts
   Range 2,220nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 69 tons (92% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   37 - 49

Cost:
   £0.038 million / $0.151 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 185 tons, 57.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 73 tons, 22.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 49 tons, 15.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 1.2 %
      - On freeboard deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     76 lbs / 34 Kg = 3.4 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.47
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.431
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.29 ft / 3.44 m,  11.29 ft / 3.44 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:      8.66 ft / 2.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 191.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,061 Square feet or 192 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 27 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.31
      - Overall: 0.58
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Kaiser Kirk]

So, one historical Italian ship I like the look of is the Regina Elena class.
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ships/ships-italy/33371/view/rn_regina_elena_%28battleship%29/
Cool ships.

Best as I can work out, I can't start such things until HY1 1905.
At that point I could really use more lighter vessels, but the Dreadnaught Race should be just starting, so I'll rush these pre-dreads out while they still make some sorta sense.

I plan on some "improvements"-   twin 12" instead of single, superimposed secondary guns on the centerline, bigger & longer...oddly not faster, etc. 
Overall, they wind up large Predreads, but in keeping with Lord Nelsons, built OTL 1905-1908.

I based them as a modified Regina Margherita hull, using turrets instead of casements for the heavy secondary, but still giving a broadside of 10x180mm like the Regina Margherita
The intermediate battery is mounted in turrets, the antimine bulge is more prominent, and the beam is slightly greater overall.

Turrets & Mounts are -4 to +30

Armor
The 100mm Upper belt covers from +6.89 to +2.00, and covers the base of the barbettes of the secondary turrets. This is considered proof against most QF secondaries at battle ranges. and boosts the barbette armor to 165mm for most of it's length. A 30mm upper armored deck caps the upper belt and casement space

Main belt covers from +2.0m past the next deck at -0.43 to -1.6m
The underwater hullspace is sufficient to keep all vitals below the waterline, allowing the fitting of a protective deck.

The 50mm turtleback protective main deck is turtlebacked to meet  the main belt at  -0.43m, presenting a 50mm slope past the 315mm belt. above water, but just the belt armor from -0.43 to -1.6m, and no armor deeper than that, just the bulge. This means a non-diving shot penetrating the 315mm main belt will have to penetrate the 50mm deck behind it- very tough to do.

The 65mm end belts are capped by a 30mm deck. This is felt sufficient against most HE shells or long range hits and all splinters - simplifying damage control.

The 8mm of bulge armor represents the structural steel of the bulge. The bulge comes to the bottom of the main belt, and connects to the double bottom.

Decks are 2.44m (8ft) apart and occur at :
+6.89
+4.45
+2.01 (Top of main belt)
-0.43 ( Crown of protective deck)
(-1.60 Bottom of main belt)
-2.87
-5.31
-7.75


Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
250t : Torpedo nets, 50% stronger than standard as net cutting torpedoes should be on scene or thought of by now. Armor steel is used for greater toughness.
25t : 1x bow torpedo, 2 torpedoes each beam, 5 torpedoes/tube- Italians still see these as potential nails in the coffin in a close range slugfest.
35t : Short & Long range wireless.
525t : Construction reserve.

Regina Elena, Italia Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   16,799 t light; 17,707 t standard; 19,374 t normal; 20,708 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (552.82 ft / 541.34 ft) x 69.72 ft (Bulges 79.56 ft) x (28.22 / 29.97 ft)
   (168.50 m / 165.00 m) x 21.25 m (Bulges 24.25 m)  x (8.60 / 9.14 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 917.12lbs / 416.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1898 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 143 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1901 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     6 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1901 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 30.0 cal guns - 0.99lbs / 0.45kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1888 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 6,785 lbs / 3,078 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.4" / 315 mm   324.80 ft / 99.00 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Ends:   2.56" / 65 mm   216.50 ft / 65.99 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   262.47 ft / 80.00 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Hull Bulges:
      0.31" / 8 mm   321.52 ft / 98.00 m   22.97 ft / 7.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.8" / 325 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   7.87" / 200 mm   2.56" / 65 mm      2.56" / 65 mm
   3rd:   4.92" / 125 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks: 3.15" / 80 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.40" / 315 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 22,251 ihp / 16,600 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,001 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   820 - 1,067

Cost:
   £1.593 million / $6.373 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,221 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 5,812 tons, 30.0 %
      - Belts: 2,843 tons, 14.7 %
      - Bulges: 86 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armament: 1,356 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,334 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 193 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,193 tons, 16.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,763 tons, 29.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,575 tons, 13.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 810 tons, 4.2 %
      - Hull below water: 275 tons
      - Hull above water: 35 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,474 lbs / 10,194 Kg = 26.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.66

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.558 / 0.561
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  22.60 ft / 6.89 m,  22.60 ft / 6.89 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  22.60 ft / 6.89 m,  22.60 ft / 6.89 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  14.60 ft / 4.45 m,  14.60 ft / 4.45 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  14.60 ft / 4.45 m,  14.60 ft / 4.45 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,537 Square feet or 2,465 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 712 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Kaiser Kirk]

So, I got a polite PM comment suggesting a 3T2 design would be better as a battleship.
Which has real merit, and I've got some 3T2 designs I've considered, and I appreciate the comment.
Plus - I look around and the 3T2 seems to be the "standard" folks are building.
While I am admittedly going to push to lay this down prior to any all-big gun Dreadnaughts being commissioned,
I'm not the UK, I can't afford to waste tonnage on a design that doesn't even meet the standards of it's day - which does seem to be the 3T2.

So, this time, it led to me really breaking down my mental presumptions and double checking things, which I've written up.

With this one I decided to go with a classic Pre-dread.  Both for looks, and definitely for what I find neat, but also period practicality.
But basically, the 16x180mm is taking the place of an amidships 2x305mm on this design. There a 1.03 comp hull difference.
10x180mm bear each broadside, fore or aft. The 10x180mm which can fire aft  will make a mess of the bow of anything chasing, destroy it's floatation, and it's speed. 

So to explain my thought process to the disinterested, I decided to "reply" here. I'd like to say, while my reply is detailed, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just explain.
Anyhow, others can have different views, and still be right, because the values we place on design elements can differ.
Perhaps one player puts huge value on that belt penetrating critical, while I don't see it being easy to penetrate the belt + turtleback combos, or hit the relatively small target area of the belt.
As ships roll, or if they aren't 90degrees to each other, the distance to penetrate varies.

Setting
This is 1904 before effective armor piercing shells can even be researched. I have some belief that somewhere in this time frame the main guns fired nearly solid shot - no reliable bursting past a main belt.  There is no fire control so shell splash size is not a concern - plus 180mm is far from the 240mms where that was an issue.
Not to mention one could always just salvo fire the two sizes at seperate times once one *does* have central director fire control.
Battle ranges are 2-5000m, with torpedoes for close range, and extreme range being 8-10,000m. At this time, a large number of intermediate hits are thought to be important in wrecking a ship.

We're all used to the big gun dreadnaughts, but this is a different era. Heck, I'd like it if when a tech was available to research was a bit more random to cut down on preplanning.
And ships aren't all-or-nothing designs with a raft body, and in this period are still rather flammable, with lots of paint, wood, etc above the armor deck.  Even riddled stacks or bows both destroy speed.
Ships were turned to burning wrecks in the Sino-Japanese, Spanish-American, and the yet to be fought Russo-Japanese. Last I checked, they still aren't sure if Bismarck took a penetrating belt hit, but she
was wrecked and afire. Fire may have led to magazine loss and Hood's demise. Scharnhorst lost her directors to 8" fire.
While it was Warspite's main battery that hit Guilio Cesare, it was the blast wave that forced a boiler shutdown, not penetration.

Hit Rates
At those battle ranges, a 305mm gun firing 1-2 shots/minute will have a hit rate of no more than 10%. Or at least that's what they can manage against a moored target.
So every 5-10 minutes you score 1 hit with a shell that punches a hole, but doesn't burst for much. It's main advantage is it can score a waterline hit in a critical sector.
So trading a broadside of 2 x 305mm for 10x 180mm gives me 3 shells/min vs. 45 shells/min. About a 1:15 factor.

Comparison
A 3T2 configuration gives 3-6 rounds/minute, with a hit every 2-3 minutes.
My Regina Elena can fire 4  x 305mm on the broadside, and 10 x 180mm.
With my I'll manage 2-4 rounds/minute with the 4 x 305, for a hit every 3-5 min and 40-50 rounds/min with the 10x 180mm. For 4-5 hits/minute.

I used "BigGun" because it gave me a relative metric, not necessarily a "correct" one. Unfortunately I haven't got it to work on Win7, but I have a saved 180/45.
So as a proxy for what the Italians in 1900 knew, vs what Facehard can come up with, I'm happy with it.

According to that those 180mm will penetrate 150mm upper belt armor at 6200m or less, and lighter 250mm main belts at 2900m, while up to 380mm at point blank range.
Which means at the 2000-5000m battle ranges, they will punch through any cruiser or anything less than a battleship's main belt...and can defeat those at under 2000m.
Meanwhile at extreme ranges- should they get lucky, they can penetrate ~30mm of deck, which takes care of many cruisers.

Damage
Ahh, but a 400kg hit is more damaging than a 80kg hit !...
Yes and no.

For the sake of simplicity, let's say both hit armor they can penetrate, and both blow up, and both produce a lethal volume in m3 equal 10x  to the weight kg of the shell.
so 4/3r3 = vol of a sphere and so r3 = vol * 3/4
So all you need is the cube root
So on a 400kg shell, Volume would be 4000m, and radius would be 14.42m
While on an 80kg shell, volume would be just 800m, and radius would be 8.43m

So, 1 to 1 , the 400kg shell is *so* much better.
But... we're talking 1 x 400kg shell for 15x80kg shells.
Which is 400:1200 in throwweight.

Not only do the 80kg add up to more throw weight, but they potentially will wreck a much larger area of the ship (127m vs 15m).
Not to mention 15 shots have a better golden twinkie capacity.
The counter is of course that the 400kg shot may penetrate the main belt...but I'm pretty sure it won't detonate, or have a really tiny bursting charge, even if it hits that small % of the ship.
Plus I still have 4x305mm for that.

And high velocity, flat firing 180mm weapons in lighter turrets are more capable of engaging destroyers and light cruisers than larger 305mm guns.
Of course there's also the 90mm in casements for that, lower down and closer to the water for a flatter, higher hit % shot.
Which for the size limited Italian fleet that can't afford lots of screening vessels, is a bonus.

So,
I've really liked writing this up, as it allowed me to challenge my notions and double check my thought processes as a step by step.
I *thought* that the higher ROF would mean more hits and thus more area damaged...but I hadn't done the math.

When the all big gun ships roll out, this will change some, then will come all-or-nothing armor, and the final nail will
be about 1912 the equations will change as Fire Control moves the range stakes. But the Italian designers don't know that yet.

Again, folks with the ability of more screening vessels may want to rely on ACs for some of this, and use their 3T2 Battleships as the final hammer.
Or they just expect the belt hits to be more decisive than I do.

[Tanthalas]

All valid points (honestly in several ways I agree with you, but I went AQY just cause I like the way they look so well yeah.  Regina Elena is one of the ships that I always liked, but much like you I couldnt afford to build one mission ships, but by the same token nor can I afford to replace my whole fleet when Dreads eventualy show up.  My responce was to build AQY ships that were as fast and well protected as I could (and hope they are atleast marginaly serviceable in the dreadnaught era).

[Kaiser Kirk]

Turbines Oh My !

At the beginning of HY2, 1903, the Italians will be able to lay down turbine powered vessels.
The first will be smaller ships meant to be Destroyer leaders, the Cavalieri DDL.  They are 0.15knts slower on trials than the Lanceri DDs, but have a 90mm gun and radios.

Cavalieri, Italia Destroyer Leader laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   350 t light; 362 t standard; 418 t normal; 462 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (216.54 ft / 213.25 ft) x 21.33 ft x (8.04 / 8.62 ft)
   (66.00 m / 65.00 m) x 6.50 m  x (2.45 / 2.63 m)

Armament:
      1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1901 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
      4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 43.0 cal guns - 6.02lbs / 2.73kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1884 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 94.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1881 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      Weight of broadside 48 lbs / 22 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 4,968 shp / 3,706 Kw = 23.50 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 100 tons (93% coal)

Complement:
   46 - 60

Cost:
   £0.044 million / $0.178 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 2.0 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 214 tons, 51.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 93 tons, 22.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 68 tons, 16.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 29 tons, 6.9 %
      - Hull above water: 25 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     105 lbs / 48 Kg = 4.7 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.29 ft / 3.44 m,  11.29 ft / 3.44 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m,  8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:      8.66 ft / 2.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,647 Square feet or 246 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 91 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 0.56
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

3rd Battery Shell weight too light

The Cavalieri Class of Destroyer Leaders are the first Turbine powered vessels in Italian Service.

These little ships rely on 1 x 100% coal boilers, and 3x 10% oil spray, for 92% coal.

Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
4t - 4x 450mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear.
25t - Long range radio

Speed with the single 100% coal fire boiler is 16.2knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done without reliance on expensive oil.  The top speed is within 1/3rd of a knot of the torpedo boat destroyers.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The second turbine class came out of work I did after critiqueing the IJN CL as too skinny.
Since the smallest 4 shaft CL I could find was 13.5m, I wondered what I could do on that.

I did try lengths up to 150m while keeping the beam 13.5, and just didn't think the price was worth the minimal gain in speed. Perhaps a larger power would differ.

Anyhow, on 13.5m, constrained by T1 dock and 5000/shaft parameters, I came up with the Mercury class protected cruiser.
Heavily armed, I had some misgivings about the heavy guns on a small hull, but she's larger than the PG-Erie (4x6", 2000t) class and far lighter armed than the Etna class PCs of 3530t.


Mercury, Italian Scout Cruiser laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   3,840 t light; 3,997 t standard; 4,529 t normal; 4,954 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.70 ft / 387.14 ft) x 44.29 ft x (16.08 / 17.29 ft)
   (120.00 m / 118.00 m) x 13.50 m  x (4.90 / 5.27 m)

Armament:
      4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 45.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 128 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.17kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1.48lbs / 0.67kg shells, 1,200 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 801 lbs / 363 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.36" / 60 mm   348.43 ft / 106.20 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 138 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.18" / 30 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,281 shp / 15,130 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,544nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 956 tons (93% coal)

Complement:
   275 - 358

Cost:
   £0.440 million / $1.761 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 206 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 601 tons, 13.3 %
      - Belts: 260 tons, 5.7 %
      - Armament: 71 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 270 tons, 6.0 %
   Machinery: 1,669 tons, 36.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,233 tons, 27.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 688 tons, 15.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 131 tons, 2.9 %
      - Hull below water: 16 tons
      - Hull above water: 80 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,688 lbs / 1,219 Kg = 15.1 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.575 / 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -18.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   5.00 %,  18.70 ft / 5.70 m,  18.70 ft / 5.70 m
      - Forward deck:   55.00 %,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m,  15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  7.09 ft / 2.16 m,  7.09 ft / 2.16 m
      - Quarter deck:   5.00 %,  7.09 ft / 2.16 m,  5.45 ft / 1.66 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.57 ft / 3.83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 136.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,251 Square feet or 1,138 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 349 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 3rd battery

Designed to exploit the new turbine technology, the ship makes use of 8 boilers, 2 fully coal fired, the rest oil-sprayed coal (so 25%+(75*0.9))=92.5% coal

Range is 3 weeks at 10 knots, with a 10% reserve

A protected cruiser, armor is 90mm on the slopes and 30mm on the flat.

35t- The ships are fitted with both short range and long range wireless
16t- fitted with 2 broadside torpedo tubes on each side- with 16 torpedoes.
80t- The fantail is fitted as a minedeck with 80 mines

[Jefgte]

The last one, Mercury class, is an impressive scout cruiser with high performances.

Exellent  :)

[Walter]

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 3rd battery

Looks like SS does not like this caliber size machine guns in 1903... Maybe use the QF option instead?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 3rd battery

Looks like SS does not like this caliber size machine guns in 1903... Maybe use the QF option instead?

that's come up before. It's the historic gun, which is more correctly termed a machine gun. SS doesn't like it because it's earlier & larger than most.
So I just ignore, the weapons right, the warning is wrong.

[Walter]

Must have missed that in the past. Still I guess I must have something on my eyes then because I only see 37mm QF guns on navweaps with a couple of exceptions, none of them being machineguns.  ???

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well, this is a belt fed automatic gun that is a scaled up Maxim.
So...I view this as more of a machine gun than a QF weapon :

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_37mm-30_maxim.htm
Maxim bought out Nordenfeldt in 1888, so it's technically a Maxim-Nordenfeldt. AKA a 1pdr Pom Pom.
Meant for use against enemy TBs. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

My operations in Africa have led to the realization that while I actually *do* have the transport capacity, it would be really nice not to use the Italia class battleships as unopposed transports. The envisioned use was a 'self escorting transport' conversion. Which is unneeded against a foe equipped with canoes.

So this is the transport I'm looking at. Nothing fancy, though it uses my new Turbine technology, by time they finish building I will have had turbine destroyers sea testing for a year.
I may tinker with the hull, cut it down and make a collier version.

Bragadin, Fanti da Mar, 
Italian Transport laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   8,497 t light; 8,729 t standard; 9,676 t normal; 10,434 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.70 ft / 387.14 ft) x 62.34 ft (Bulges 68.90 ft) x (24.61 / 26.23 ft)
   (120.00 m / 118.00 m) x 19.00 m (Bulges 21.00 m)  x (7.50 / 8.00 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.13lbs / 20.47kg shells, 125 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1892 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.13lbs / 20.47kg shells, 125 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1892 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 30.0 cal guns - 0.99lbs / 0.45kg shells, 250 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1888 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 546 lbs / 247 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm            -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Box over magazines: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,878 shp / 5,131 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 6,250nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,705 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   487 - 634

Cost:
   £0.408 million / $1.632 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 1.1 %
   Armour: 130 tons, 1.3 %
      - Bulges: 54 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armament: 52 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 24 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 573 tons, 5.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,323 tons, 24.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,179 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5,360 tons, 55.4 %
      - Hull below water: 500 tons
      - Hull above water: 2,250 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 2,250 tons
      - Above deck: 360 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,547 lbs / 8,413 Kg = 357.3 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.516 / 0.522
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  26.05 ft / 7.94 m,  26.05 ft / 7.94 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  26.05 ft / 7.94 m,  26.05 ft / 7.94 m
      - Aft deck:   45.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      21.25 ft / 6.48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 54.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,317 Square feet or 1,516 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 416 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.01
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 3rd battery

Named after Pasquale di Paoli a Corsican (France) patriot

Built to Mercantile standards.

to mercantile standards if armament and armor take up no more than 2% of the ship's weight at normal displacement

Which means no more than 2% of normal displacement may be guns/armor. In this case that is ~193 tons.
Note that I have 6mm of "Armour" on my anti-mine bulges, which is meant to represent - not Armor Plate- but the structural steel of the bulge.
Armanent : 111 tons
Armour : 103 tons - 58 tons of non-armored bulge steel : 45tons
Total : 156 tons  - OK



Decks at
+7.94
+5.5
+3.06
+.62
-1.82
-4.26
-6.7

4,500t : Troop capacity for long term transport of Two 1895 Regiments (One 1905 Regiment) ( 2250 men + kit)
240t on deck : 6x 20 ton motor launchs.
35t : short & long range radios
85t : (~1% light D) Enhanced forced ventilation
500t : Extra bulk cargo

Cost : 8.5-0.5(cargo) = 8/4 = $2, 2BP for Mercantile standard

[Kaiser Kirk]

The Navy perceives a need for a larger collier for the African territories.
With a 5500ton capacity, she can top off either Berbera or Nacala, and she can make 2 runs per 6 months.
With the 11,000nm range, she can make a straight run to Nacala and back, with reserves, without having to use her cargo for her own propulsion.

She's designed to fight off any pirate or light raider, or at least wound one, if necessary. She will be instructed to simply surrender to anything greatly superior.

Secchio di Carbone "Coal Scuttle", Italian Collier laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   9,999 t light; 10,306 t standard; 13,373 t normal; 15,827 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (392.06 ft / 385.50 ft) x 70.54 ft (Bulges 77.10 ft) x (24.61 / 28.77 ft)
   (119.50 m / 117.50 m) x 21.50 m (Bulges 23.50 m)  x (7.50 / 8.77 m)

Armament:
      4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.13lbs / 20.47kg shells, 130 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1892 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.13lbs / 20.47kg shells, 130 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1892 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 30.0 cal guns - 0.99lbs / 0.45kg shells, 250 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1888 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 546 lbs / 247 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Box over machinery & magazines: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.18" / 30 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,803 shp / 6,567 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 11,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,520 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   621 - 808

Cost:
   £0.483 million / $1.932 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 0.8 %
   Armour: 205 tons, 1.5 %
      - Bulges: 54 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armament: 45 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 91 tons, 0.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 734 tons, 5.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,390 tons, 17.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,374 tons, 25.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6,560 tons, 49.1 %
      - Hull below water: 5,500 tons
      - Hull above water: 600 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 360 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,229 lbs / 9,176 Kg = 389.7 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.27
   Metacentric height 10.5 ft / 3.2 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.90

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.640 / 0.648
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.63 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  9.38 ft / 2.86 m,  9.38 ft / 2.86 m
      - Aft deck:   40.00 %,  9.38 ft / 2.86 m,  9.38 ft / 2.86 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m,  17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.59 ft / 3.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,640 Square feet or 1,918 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 157 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 412 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Warning: Calibre too large for machine gun - 3rd battery

Named after a coal scuttle :)

Built to Mercantile standards.

to mercantile standards if armament and armor take up no more than 2% of the ship's weight at normal displacement

Which means no more than 2% of normal displacement may be guns/armor. In this case that is ~267 tons.

Note : bulge "armor" is simple structural steel, included as an accounting method.

Armanent : 111 tons
Armour : 205 tons - 54 tons of non-armored bulge steel : 151tons
Total : 263 tons  - OK



Decks at

+5.3
+2.86
+.42
-2.02
-4.46
-6.9

5500t : Coal storage
240t on deck : 6x 20 ton motor launches.
35t : short & long range radios
85t : (~1% light D) Enhanced forced ventilation
600t : Extra bulk cargo
100t : Passenger room, 25 passengers

Cost : 10.0-6.1*(coal &cargo) = 3.9/4 = $0.975, 0.975BP for Mercantile standard

*as non-functional miscellaneous weight, coal and cargo are deducted from the cost of the vessel.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I've organized my thoughts and beliefs that I'm going to try to follow for the Italians.
I will be using a little bit of foresight, a couple of 'I want to try this' and ultimately limited by budget
I will havel choose if I'm going light & fast or slow & tough ...well later.

In the meantime, if any have comments/questions -OR corrective information-  on http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,6926.0.html
y'all can do it in this thread.

[The Rock Doctor]

It strikes me that you're losing a lot of deck space to the heavy space to the unusually heavy armament on these auxiliaries.  It's definite overkill for piracy; seems more like they're all being built as possible AMCs or commerce raiders themselves.