Spain Projects

[Walter]

I see you added the 16cm gun to it as well. To be honest I looked at the picture many times and I just could not find it only to realize a few minutes ago while I was grumbling about the fact that the picture used the board's background instead of white that it is right there sticking out at the front (so not aft as you simmed it). Guess I need a pair of glasses. :)

Looking at it, it is a design that does not really allow itself to be simmed with SS without a struggle. I am fairly sure that if I were to do it and try to match the sim exactly with the picture, hull strength would end up well below 1.

but then again I like weird ships

Maybe because you are weird? ;D

a thought though would you be better going with a uniform 11 inch MB instead of the mix of 11 inch and 12 inch?  Possibly 11 inch twins fore and aft with 11 inch singles on the wings.

Would the uniform main battery not require the 1902 tech? To me it would (though I could be wrong).

[snip]

Due to the inclusion of 280mm guns, this is still not a legal N-verse design (Didn't notice the date change, my bad). Also, the inclusion of tumblehome would need to be discussed. Bulges on non-refitted ships, while not explicitly outlawed, are not something we really want to see proliferate. Unfortunelty there is no good way to sim tumblehome outside of that.

Would the uniform main battery not require the 1902 tech? To me it would (though I could be wrong).

It would.

The above being said, its a good sim of the historical ship. I still think the cruiser stern is the correct way due to the top-down view posted earlier in the thread, but as noted it has no practical outcome on the sim itself. Im not sure Box is the right configuration for the deck armor ether. To my knowledge, that option is meant to cover 1930's cruiser schemes.

I would like to see your take on some N-verse legal ships that the USN decorated the bottom of Santiago with from the same era.

[Tanthalas]

Try out the Infanta Maria Teresa-class armored cruiser olekit.  I have done it several times (what I like the ship), even used a version for my startup fleet.  Dandy ships, even if the USN smashed em flat.

[Walter]

Due to the inclusion of 280mm guns, this is still not a legal N-verse design.

What? Why? Would it not fall under the 1891 Mixed-caliber main battery? So is it not correct to use that on a 1893 design? Am I missing something? Are there calibers between the main caliber and 155mm guns that we are not allowed to use and that have not been posted?  ???

I still think the cruiser stern is the correct way due to the top-down view posted earlier in the thread, but as noted it has no practical outcome on the sim itself.

I disagree. Looking at those wiki pics, it matches one of the top views of the round stern (the top left one of figure 25). With cruiser stern I think more of figure 26 considering that that is what SS shows me when I use the cruiser stern option and that one does not match the stern of the Pelayo at all.

Actually considering that that pointy stern in figure 25 falls under the round stern option, I think that the top view has absolutely nothing to do with 'round stern'. If that were the case than the sterns of figure 21, 23, 25 (except the pointy one) and 26 should all be considered round stern but they are not.

[snip]

O, the laydown date was changed. My bad.

[Walter]

Yes, it was changed so it should be legal.

As for round the round stern bit, I get the impression that the roundness that determines that is:

[olekit24]

ok. here is Infanta Maria Teresa AC

Infanta Maria Teresa, Spain Armored cruiser laid down 1898 (Engine 1890)
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   6 932 t light; 7 264 t standard; 7 865 t normal; 8 346 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (364,01 ft / 357,45 ft) x 65,16 ft x (21,49 / 22,53 ft)
   (110,95 m / 108,95 m) x 19,86 m  x (6,55 / 6,87 m)

Armament:
      2 - 11,02" / 280 mm 35,0 cal guns - 628,04lbs / 284,87kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1891 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm 35,0 cal guns - 78,50lbs / 35,61kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1891 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 42,0 cal guns - 5,48lbs / 2,49kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1891 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1891 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      Weight of broadside 2 097 lbs / 951 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   218,01 ft / 66,45 m   5,51 ft / 1,68 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         10,5" / 267 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2,01" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2,01" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 855 ihp / 10 336 Kw = 19,64 kts
   Range 4 200nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 082 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   416 - 542

Cost:
   £0,698 million / $2,791 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 314 tons, 4,0%
      - Guns: 314 tons, 4,0%
   Armour: 1 945 tons, 24,7%
      - Belts: 654 tons, 8,3%
      - Armament: 371 tons, 4,7%
      - Armour Deck: 818 tons, 10,4%
      - Conning Tower: 102 tons, 1,3%
   Machinery: 2 566 tons, 32,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 103 tons, 26,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 933 tons, 11,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0,1%
      - Hull above water: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6 779 lbs / 3 075 Kg = 10,1 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,52
   Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 11,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,68

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,550 / 0,557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -9,84 ft / -3,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   24,00%,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Aft deck:   22,00%,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Quarter deck:   24,00%,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m,  16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Average freeboard:      16,50 ft / 5,03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122,8%
   Waterplane Area: 16 254 Square feet or 1 510 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 467 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,56
      - Overall: 1,00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[olekit24]

And another one design

Aragon, Iberia Union Battleship laid down 1901 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   11 925 t light; 12 602 t standard; 13 438 t normal; 14 107 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (392,52 ft / 385,96 ft) x 75,23 ft x (25,59 / 26,66 ft)
   (119,64 m / 117,64 m) x 22,93 m  x (7,80 / 8,13 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12,01" / 305 mm 40,0 cal guns - 829,70lbs / 376,34kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1891 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
      14 - 5,98" / 152 mm 40,0 cal guns - 102,70lbs / 46,58kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1891 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1891 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 5,70lbs / 2,58kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1891 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 4 899 lbs / 2 222 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   250,66 ft / 76,40 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
   Ends:   5,91" / 150 mm   134,51 ft / 41,00 m   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
     0,79 ft / 0,24 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   229,66 ft / 70,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Hull void:
      0,00" / 0 mm     0,00 ft / 0,00 m   0,00 ft / 0,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,87" / 200 mm   3,54" / 90 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   5,98" / 152 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2,99" / 76 mm  Quarter deck: 2,99" / 76 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19 646 ihp / 14 656 Kw = 19,67 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 505 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   623 - 811

Cost:
   £1,190 million / $4,761 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 860 tons, 6,4%
      - Guns: 860 tons, 6,4%
   Armour: 4 260 tons, 31,7%
      - Belts: 1 873 tons, 13,9%
      - Armament: 947 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1 222 tons, 9,1%
      - Conning Towers: 218 tons, 1,6%
   Machinery: 3 070 tons, 22,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 626 tons, 27,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 513 tons, 11,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 0,8%
      - Hull void weights: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14 226 lbs / 6 453 Kg = 16,4 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 14,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,46

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck ,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,633 / 0,638
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -4,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -9,84 ft / -3,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   13,00%,  20,44 ft / 6,23 m,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00%,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Aft deck:   50,00%,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m,  19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   17,00%,  12,47 ft / 3,80 m,  12,47 ft / 3,80 m
      - Average freeboard:      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,8%
   Waterplane Area: 21 898 Square feet or 2 034 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 625 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,84
      - Overall: 1,00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Logi]

On Ifanta Maria Teresa:

2 - 11,02" / 280 mm 35,0 cal guns - 628,04lbs / 284,87kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1891 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft

You don't need to specify the position of each gun. The option "majority forward" and/or "majority aft" covers the layout you are trying to do.

Main Belt covers 94% of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

In addition it's armored as AON which is against the rules since it too early for that tech and Spain does not have that tech.

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2,01" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2,01" / 51 mm

Armored deck is very thick.


On the Aragon:

4- 12,01" / 305 mm 40,0 cal guns - 829,70lbs / 376,34kg shells, 150 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1891 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck aft

You have 4 guns and only two mounts... but the two mounts are "singles" so you have 2 unaccounted guns.

0,79 ft / 0,24 m Unarmoured ends

Your belt doesn't cover the whole ship.

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2,99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2,99" / 76 mm  Quarter deck: 2,99" / 76 mm

That's very thick deck armor for the period. You have an armored belt along with a protected deck which is your prerogative, but I feel it is a bit questionable.

Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 0,8%
      - Hull void weights: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 10 tons

What are you using this Misc weight for? Please declare it at the end of the file. You can add it to the "notes" section before making the report to automatically place it at the end of the report.


And as reminder, you select a small set of Naval Guns, usually historic ones, at the start of the sim which do not exceed 1900 Naval Gun tech as a foundation. Other and newer guns have to be separated researched in your sim reports.

[Walter]

In addition it's armored as AON which is against the rules since it too early for that tech and Spain does not have that tech.

True. Something slightly different what would be the best way to sim those end belts of the Infanta Maria Teresa? Its height goes from that of the main belt where it is connected to the main belt all the way to nothing at the ends when I look at the image at wiki.

Armored deck is very thick.

It is thick, yes, but that is what Wiki gives for the Infata. So the other might not be that unreasonable. I would have to check...

[snip]

Would we be able to see your take on some smaller designs such as destroyers? Please familiarise yourself with our rules on such as well.

[olekit24]

TB-1, Iberia Destroyer laid down 1900

Displacement:
   370 t light; 382 t standard; 411 t normal; 433 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (207,71 ft / 205,12 ft) x 17,62 ft x (9,51 / 9,87 ft)
   (63,31 m / 62,52 m) x 5,37 m  x (2,90 / 3,01 m)

Armament:
      2 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 40,0 cal guns - 12,84lbs / 5,82kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 40,0 cal guns - 5,42lbs / 2,46kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 0,47" / 12,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,05lbs / 0,02kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 48 lbs / 22 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6 476 ihp / 4 831 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 1 300nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 51 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   45 - 59

Cost:
   £0,050 million / $0,199 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 1,8%
      - Guns: 8 tons, 1,8%
   Armour: 1 tons, 0,2%
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0,2%
   Machinery: 246 tons, 59,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 114 tons, 27,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 41 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0,4%
      - On freeboard deck: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     87 lbs / 40 Kg = 6,5 x 3,0 " / 76 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,418 / 0,425
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -1,96 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,12 ft / 0,34 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25,00%,  12,14 ft / 3,70 m,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Aft deck:   30,00%,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,89 ft / 2,10 m
      - Average freeboard:      7,88 ft / 2,40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62,5%
   Waterplane Area: 2 250 Square feet or 209 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 20%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 114 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,68
      - Longitudinal: 2,36
      - Overall: 0,78
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0,4%
-   4x356mm torpedo tubes

Trial Speed: 28.5
Bonus: 3.5

[Jefgte]

Correct TB1

- Cross-sectional: 0,68

inf limit to cross sectional is 0.5
=> you could increase armament, shells, speed, range, beam...
to have 0.5

Jef

[olekit24]

Jef, why?

[Jefgte]

To have better performances  ;)

Jef