Dutch Destroyers

[P3D]

Engine cost is double the weight. My proposed refit is difficult to implement with SS2, but can be done.

I will look into boiler weight of RN destroyers.

[Korpen]

One of several studies for the next class of destroyers.
It is basically a enlarged G-Class ship, and with the same layout.
The major difference is that they will be fitted with FC systems, and have significantly longer range.

K.M. De Schelde Shipyard

H-Class, Netherlands Jager laid down 1912

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 047 t standard; 1 285 t normal; 1 476 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   329,90 ft / 324,80 ft x 29,53 ft x 11,27 ft (normal load)
   100,55 m / 99,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,43 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21 509 shp / 16 046 Kw = 29,70 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 429 tons

Complement:
   106 - 139

Cost:
   £0,148 million / $0,593 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2,6 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 612 tons, 47,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 310 tons, 24,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 285 tons, 22,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3,1 %
               -25 ton FC
               -10 ton Radio
               -5 ton Torpedoes
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     335 lbs / 152 Kg = 6,3 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,48
   Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,416
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,02 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (32 %):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,82 ft / 3,60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 5 964 Square feet or 554 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,24
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Korpen]

One of the several designs that is undergoing studies in the competition for the 1912 TBJ design.
The design is a radical deviation form traditional Dutch designs in that everything have been sacrificed to maximise her speed. With a speed of 35kts under average conditions (and even more under good conditions and/or in shallow water) it would be some of the fastest ships in the world.  Together with her heavy torpedo armament the class is a formidable foe in restricted waters. The ship however lacks the firepower that is usually associated with Kingdom designs. This together with the shorter range and worse accommodations makes the ship far less suited for open sea operations then the design above.

Mij Feijenoord  Shipyard, Schiedam

H-Class, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912

Displacement:
   840 t light; 863 t standard; 934 t normal; 990 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   328,08 ft / 328,08 ft x 27,33 ft x 8,89 ft (normal load)
   100,00 m / 100,00 m x 8,33 m  x 2,71 m

Armament:
      3 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
   Weight of broadside 60 lbs / 27 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 34 393 shp / 25 657 Kw = 35,00 kts
   Range 130nm at 35,00 kts,  ~2300nm @ 12kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 127 tons

Complement:
   83 - 109

Cost:
   £0,114 million / $0,457 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 560 tons, 59,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 28,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 94 tons, 10,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     202 lbs / 91 Kg = 9,7 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,45
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,71
   Her seakeeping is 1,0 at 30,5kts

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,410
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (30 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,86 ft / 3,31 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 200,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5 553 Square feet or 516 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,07
      - Overall: 0,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Any thoughts on the designs?

[Korpen]

The third candidate for a new TBJ-class.
She is largely a compromise between the two previous designs, lacking the speed of the Feijenoord design and the firepower of the Schelde design. However, she is still fast at over 32kts, and her range is equal to the preceding G-class ships. Her firepower is far from what is carried by the preceding class or the Schelde design, but with FC it is still average and about equal to what is carried by most other nations.
The tubes are arranged in a twin and one triple mount.

Again the lack of extra range is arguing against adopting this design, as is its lowered firepower, both which makes the ship less good in the primary missions.

Rijkswerf, Amsterdam

H-Class, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 035 t standard; 1 168 t normal; 1 273 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   341,21 ft / 341,21 ft x 28,44 ft x 10,27 ft (normal load)
   104,00 m / 104,00 m x 8,67 m  x 3,13 m

Armament:
      4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 150 lbs / 68 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   5 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28 286 shp / 21 101 Kw = 32,50 kts
   Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 238 tons

Complement:
   99 - 129

Cost:
   £0,138 million / $0,553 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 15 tons, 1,3 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0,1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 645 tons, 55,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 297 tons, 25,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 14,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 3,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     250 lbs / 113 Kg = 8,2 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,92
   Seakeeping is average at 31,4kts.
Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,410
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 75
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (35 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,27 ft / 3,44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 6 011 Square feet or 558 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 130 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,03
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Korpen]

And in case i have been unclear;
I would LOVE to hear which (and why) design people thing should be adopted as the next basic Jager class!
And we are talking about a run of 24 ships, so it will not be an insignificant number of keels.

[P3D]

The 35kts design has limited operational capabilities due to the lack of W/T.
The 32.5kts design also has limited endurance for all its displacement.

I'd build 16 of the 30kts design, plus 8 of the faster design - slowed down to 32kts for longer range.

[Ithekro]

You might want a slightly longer ranged version of the 35 knot vessel and then maybe a small selection of better armed versions of the designs (maybe slightly larger, or with less guns) as leaders.

[Korpen]

The 35kts design has limited operational capabilities due to the lack of W/T.
The 32.5kts design also has limited endurance for all its displacement.

I'd build 16 of the 30kts design, plus 8 of the faster design - slowed down to 32kts for longer range.

Adding radio to the Feijenoord is possible, adding a ten ton radio increase her size to 910ton, something that is accepteble.

You might want a slightly longer ranged version of the 35 knot vessel and then maybe a small selection of better armed versions of the designs (maybe slightly larger, or with less guns) as leaders.

Increasing range is trickier as 80%-90% of any size increase is used up my engines and hull, giving very little payoff for increasing displacement. At 1000ton the Feijenoord design would have a range of 160nm full speed (3000nm @ 12kts) and a ten ton radio.  would have a range of 160nm full speed (3000nm @ 12kts) and a ten ton radio.

The Admiralty feels that de Scheldes design is the strongest as things stand.
This due:
Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.
Superior firepower; allowing the designs to outgun and outfight all existing foreign destroyers as well as quite a few older light & protected cruisers.
Familiar design; the designs is a evolution of the preceding class, and ties in with existing routines and operating concepts.
While her speed is not stellar, it is enough to allow the design to operate together with the fast armoured frigates to be laid down in 1912.

The Feijenoord is otherwise a design the Navy is interested in, but it feels that such a radically different design, with such strict operating limitations is not suitable for the global mission required of the destroyer force. However we (the kingdom) are considering building a flotilla in addition to the 24 boat main class for North Sea service, were the design can shine.

Ii always interested in feedback, thoughts and questions about the designs and how they are to be used. And thanks to those who already have given some. :)

[P3D]

Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.

Range does not translate into endurance, their utility as patrol ship is still limited.

[Korpen]

Superior range; allowing the ships to undertake traditional mission such as ocean patrol, escort duties and capital ship screening.

Range does not translate into endurance, their utility as patrol ship is still limited.

True, and one reason i took some pains to make sure the accomodations was slightly less cramped then is usual on DDs.
A few weeks at sea should not be outside their capabillity (even if it is very unlikley unless when at war).

[Korpen]

Very simple concept, instead of having banks of torpedoes, the ship got a pair of 35cm guns fixed on the forecastle. The guns cannot train, but have around 3 degrees of elevation, allowing for a range of around 6km. The concept is simple, as out to that range the shell travels on such a low trajectory to be able to strike targets along almost the entire path (and below 4km, the entire path).
So the plan is that a ship such as this would go full speed towards the enemy, aim a few meters ahead of the enemy (10m) at around 4km and fire. Even if the enemy is moving at 30kts there would not be enough time to get out of the shells path.
The firecontrol is just a simple rangefinder so one knows the rough distance.
A normal ammo load out would be two shrapnel, four APC and two HE rounds per gun.

Could this work?


Hammer of Tyr, Netherlands Arial torpedoboot laid down 1912
Armoured gunboat

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 035 t standard; 1 132 t normal; 1 210 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   278,87 ft / 278,87 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   85,00 m / 85,00 m x 8,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mount
     on bow with limited arc
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
   Weight of broadside 2 646 lbs / 1 200 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 8

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 624 shp / 11 655 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 176 tons
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   96 - 126

Cost:
   £0,343 million / $1,374 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 327 tons, 28,9 %
   Machinery: 241 tons, 21,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 422 tons, 37,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 11,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     129 lbs / 58 Kg = 0,1 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 9,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 3,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (30 %):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,83 ft / 3,30 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5 108 Square feet or 475 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 29 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 217 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,20
      - Overall: 0,58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[The Rock Doctor]

If you're sending it out to attack capital ships...I suppose it might work.  Only problem is she can't harm anything that isn't directly in front of her, so screening units might chew her up before she can get many rounds off.

[Ithekro]

Rather limited utility there.  Can the ship support that much weight and space (and balance while manuvering)?

However, I do see a sci-fi parallel to this design (two actually)....White Star/Defiant type.  Small (relative to the targets) ship, highly manuverable, with extremely heavy firepower for its size.  Problem here is that while is may have the firepower, if won't have enough to kill a target (unless really lucky on critical hits) with only eight APC shells on the boat.  Of course with approach speeds and her limited range, that means maybe two shots per gun at a target per run.  (assuming 4km range, 27 knots closing speed and a target that might think you are on a torpedo run if they don't identify the ship correctly.  About 4 minutes to shoot at the target.  You might get four shots off with each gun.  I doubt a half minute reload time for some reason, and timing fire with the target from a fixed platform (steerng only the ship) might take longer than a turret.  Also that would make her a one use vessel in battle, if she can only attack one target on a run...though her other shell might be useful agianst crusiers.  Shapnel rounds against other destroyers, or just close in on the cruisers right before you turn off?

Tactic:  Use a flotilla of these in a line abreast with a line astern of torpedo boats/destroyers.  Use the lead gunships to supress the enemy until you are in very close range, then turn away in line, releasing torpedoes from the train as they come to bare.

[Jefgte]

The reload of the gun could be certainly shorter , about 15sec because, the shells & pounder bags are near the gun, in light protected case, ready for use (no magazine, hoist & barbette).


BB guns on a DD...

Idea is interresting, so, I imagine the guns on the side of the little bridge to limite the weight at the stem. Your stem is too short
"...Forecastle (10 %)..."

Your ship is also
"Poor seaboat..."

Test other form of hull.

&...Place a QF gun for retreat


Jef  ;)

[P3D]

If the range is short, IMO no need for 350mm guns. A 10-12" gun with light shells would still have adequate penetration.

Problem is, aiming in even moderately heavy seas would be close to impossible. And torpedoes are much deadlier than one or two large caliber hits - a torpedo hit is always below the waterline, and damages vital stuff (flotation reserve at the least), while a gun shot can just go through the superstructure or the hull.

Also limited utility in daylight against capital ship.