Dutch Destroyers

[Borys]

Ahoj!
IMO the shields are too thick - you are firing at fast moving targets, remember?
Apart from that - OK.
But maybe adjust the trim to improve shooting, the raison de ettre of this boat.

Borys

[Ithekro]

If you are going for a cruiser type, Rohan could probably build you this in a year next year in just over one year (so you'd get it in 1908).

Halifirien

Rohan Protected Cruiser laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,696 t light; 3,845 t standard; 4,450 t normal; 4,916 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 45.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
   137.16 m / 137.16 m x 13.72 m  x 4.57 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 457 lbs / 207 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 16.0" / 406.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 28.17 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,088 tons)

Complement:
   272 - 354

Cost:
   £0.410 million / $1.638 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 57 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 436 tons, 9.8 %
      - Belts: 400 tons, 9.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 25 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,659 tons, 37.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,495 tons, 33.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 754 tons, 16.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,552 lbs / 1,611 Kg = 78.0 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m before break)
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.43 ft / 4.70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,152 Square feet or 1,222 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 332 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Not slow, 6 gun broadside, better armor.

[maddox]

Huge change from a 750 tons destroyer to a 4K tons protected cruiser, or even a small armored cruiser.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
'Tis true, that a huge leap.
But what would you chose - 6 unarmoured destroyers with 3x120 each dancing on the waves, or a single much more stable and protected against tropedoboat/destroyer gunfire vessel with 6 120mm guns (firing in one direction).
BTW - the italain cacciatori (destroyer destroyers) proved to be not very successful ...

Borys

[Ithekro]

Again, it depends greatly on the role the vessel is to have.  If you want mostly expendible (or just cheap) vessels to take out torpedo boats, that is what destroyers are for.  If you want to take out destroyers, that's what light cruisers are for.

[Korpen]

If you are going for a cruiser type, Rohan could probably build you this in a year next year in just over one year (so you'd get it in 1908).

Fast indeed, but by late 1908 it seems likley that i will be able to build it my self, but thanks for the offer. ;)

And for the moment i want more keels in the water.
And like i said, a major reason for new TBJs is to repalce my old small TBs.

Also expendibility is very nice in the north sea, as in any war with other countires there, i would not be supprised if you could walk across much of the sea by stepping from mine to mine..
And a crusier is no better then a TBJ at surviving hitting a mine.

[Desertfox]

If your looking for a destroyer destroyer look to the Swiss, killing TBs since 1901!

[maddox]

And having a lot of trouble with them.

[Desertfox]

50 TBs killed for 9 destroyers lost isnt too shabby.

[Korpen]

Some more studies from the netherlands, this time a torpedobootjager (destroyer).

The ship is intended mainly for fleet operations, and to support the armoured frigates.
For this reason the ship has unmatched range, sea keeping and almost unique for a destroyer, adequate accommodations for the crew.

The 24 ton misc weight includes the four torpedoes, a small radio and at least ten mines or minesweeping equipment.

G-class, Netherlands Torpedobootjager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 777 t standard; 907 t normal; 1 011 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   282,15 ft / 282,15 ft x 25,26 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   86,00 m / 86,00 m x 7,70 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      3 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37,48lbs / 17,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 112 lbs / 51 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 659 shp / 12 427 Kw = 28,80 kts
   Range 4 030nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 234 tons

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0,101 million / $0,406 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 11 tons, 1,3 %
   Machinery: 469 tons, 51,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 246 tons, 27,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 157 tons, 17,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     260 lbs / 118 Kg = 8,5 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 9,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,452
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (48 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,40 ft / 3,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 556 Square feet or 423 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,27
      - Overall: 0,58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

I like the lack of torpedo reloads.  Seems more period-appropriate.

I'd suggest retaining mixed-bunkerage, though.  Getting oil in places like Surinam is not necessarily going to be easy.

[Korpen]

A version with a slightly heavier gun armament, to give the ship a bit more bite.

G-class, Netherlands Torpedobootjager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 782 t standard; 912 t normal; 1 016 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   282,15 ft / 282,15 ft x 25,26 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   86,00 m / 86,00 m x 7,70 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
     3 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
     4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 159 lbs / 72 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 450 shp / 12 272 Kw = 28,68 kts
   Range 4 030nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 234 tons

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0,106 million / $0,426 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 20 tons, 2,2 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0,2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 454 tons, 49,8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 251 tons, 27,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 162 tons, 17,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     258 lbs / 117 Kg = 4,9 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,455
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (48 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,40 ft / 3,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 565 Square feet or 424 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,30
      - Overall: 0,58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

I like the lack of torpedo reloads.  Seems more period-appropriate.

I'd suggest retaining mixed-bunkerage, though.  Getting oil in places like Surinam is not necessarily going to be easy.

Should not be too hard either, and fleet tankers are high on the priority list.
But in the present situation, operations in the NOI is considered most likely, and there oil is easier to get then good coal.

As for the lack of torpedo reloads, in Dutch doctrine torpedoes are mainly a coup-de-crace weapon, to be fired at short range against targets crippled by gunfire (or against enemy ships trying to close with capital ships for a torpedo attack).
And reloading of torpedo tubes are not really practical to do at sea anyway, it is quite a complex process, especially on a small lively ship like a torpedo boat. As it have no tactical value, it is preferred to leave the carrying of torpedo reloads to special supply ships.

[Desertfox]

For this reason the ship has unmatched range, sea keeping and almost unique for a destroyer, adequate accommodations for the crew.

Actually the slightly smaller Van Hakes have better range (5,000@12) and similar seakeeping

On torpedo reloads, only the special Johann Wys class carry reloads.

[P3D]

The van Hakes are slow (27kts) for a destroyer. Sacrificing speed for range. Can be caught by any new cruiser in a bit heavier weather.
The Orange ones have firepower, speed and extra TTs - in exchange for shorter range (3000@12). Also, their L:B ratio is limited to 10:1.

The UKA ones have weak (3") guns, but nice range and speed.