Dutch Destroyers

[Korpen]

A new design proposal for a class of fleet destroyers.
The armament is excellent, in fact it is superior to some older light cruisers, giving the ships a first rate firepower. The ships is wide, high and fairly short for a destroyers, this to aid its sea keeping in hard weather, allowing the ships to be able to operate even in the worst weather (maybe not very well but tat will at least survive). Draft has has been maximised to minimize stamping. With their range and for a destroyer, very good haubitillity, they would make excellent escorts for the fleets main artillery vessels.

Displacement:
   750 t light; 791 t standard; 975 t normal; 1 122 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 11,48 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,50 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 391 shp / 9 990 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 5 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 330 tons

Complement:
   86 - 113

Cost:
   £0,114 million / $0,456 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 3,4 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 428 tons, 43,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 261 tons, 26,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 225 tons, 23,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 22 tons, 2,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     327 lbs / 148 Kg = 6,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,50
   Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 9,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,438
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (44 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,57 ft / 4,14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 285 Square feet or 398 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 141 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 3,84
      - Overall: 0,61
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

Design altered a bit in light of recent experience. The ship carries a 10 ton radio and 20 tons of mines or minesweeping equipment.

Karanga, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 792 t standard; 971 t normal; 1 114 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 10,83 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,30 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 452 shp / 8 543 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 323 tons

Complement:
   86 - 113

Cost:
   £0,110 million / $0,441 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 3,4 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 401 tons, 41,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 281 tons, 28,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 221 tons, 22,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,39
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,463
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (46 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Stern:      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   14,63 ft / 4,46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 372 Square feet or 406 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 141 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 4,83
      - Overall: 0,63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[miketr]

For torpedo boat it doesn't mount any.

Michael

[Korpen]

For torpedo boat it doesn't mount any.

Michael

That is true, recent experience show that torpedoboat captains cannot be trusted to use them wisely, and they make the forget their duty.

[miketr]

Respectfully the problem I think lies with peoples perception as to what these ships can and should do in this time period.

There  basicly popcorn that is all but incapable of taking any real damage.  Look at your Destroyer...

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes

7 hits or so from a 5" gun will sink it, 3 to 4 hits from a 6" gun and anything in the 8" range or above will just kill it out of hand.  So for anything other than TB/DD its a target without the ability to do real damage back in return.  Sure you can use it to screen your larger units but once the other side ID's them on the battle field they will ignore them other than to thin them out for a torpedo attack of there own; especially if you don't field a light fast torpedo armed ship to go along with them.  Combined with there low speed they are a very limited ship that take a number of tactical opitions away from your fleet.

In WW1 nearly 200 of them were lost to various causes.

If they get there torpedo's off they are deadly all out of proportion from there size.  The lesson my navy will have taken from the fighting is as follows. 

1) All ships need more QF weapons.
2) TB/DD's need more speed to close the range quicker
3) TB/DD's need more torpedo's and of a larger size to do more damage once they launch.

If you want a battle line escort that is the clear role of a cruiser (of some size); at least till we get DD's in the 1,000 to 1,500 ton range. 

Michael

[Korpen]

Respectfully the problem I think lies with peoples perception as to what these ships can and should do in this time period.

There  basicly popcorn that is all but incapable of taking any real damage.  Look at your Destroyer...

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     379 lbs / 172 Kg = 7,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes

7 hits or so from a 5" gun will sink it, 3 to 4 hits from a 6" gun and anything in the 8" range or above will just kill it out of hand.  So for anything other than TB/DD its a target without the ability to do real damage back in return.  Sure you can use it to screen your larger units but once the other side ID's them on the battle field they will ignore them other than to thin them out for a torpedo attack of there own; especially if you don't field a light fast torpedo armed ship to go along with them.  Combined with there low speed they are a very limited ship that take a number of tactical opitions away from your fleet.

Disagree as they are ships designed for one purpose, and that is to protect the capital ships from enemy torpedo boots, as is the primary function of all my TBs (and the reason why the captain that torpedoed the cruiser got a medal and a demotion). They are not intended to be a threat in themselves to an enemy, they are there to be expended so that the large ships is not.
It is the artillery vessels that are relies on to do damage to the enemy.

Sure it does reduce the number of tactical options, but so far those options have only been a liability, and not something that has been beneficial.

If you want a battle line escort that is the clear role of a cruiser (of some size); at least till we get DD's in the 1,000 to 1,500 ton range. 

Well, I consider cruisers to be the worst of two worlds, they are to big to be expendable, but to small to be capable of fighting anything but the most puny of enemies. While a single cruiser is more durable then a single TB, I can get five TBs for the same cost, and both types of ship is about equally vulnerable to underwater damage.

But maily it is that I simply do not like them. :)

[Desertfox]

Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.

[Ithekro]

Rohan seems to have always considered cruisers the proper escort and left the torpedo boats and destroyers as attack craft.  But then Rohan was late into the torpedo age and until recently has had not much use to the "fish that miss".  This is always why the Mark doesn't have all that many torpedo boats.  The destroyers have been fitted as torpedo boat destroyers but also to engage warships with torpedoes if possible (which has not worked out for Rohan...mainly due to numbers of ships used being between one and five mostly).  Rohan prides itself on being able to take out enemy torpedo boats with quick fire weapons before they can  can be effective.  While in practice it has limited the number of TBs that can attack Rohan lines, it has never killed them all before they can launch torpedoes.  Only the low chance of a torpedo hitting a target when using only a few torpedoes has saved the Mark's ships to date.

This shows a little in the Rohirrim designs being gun heavy, even with many 3 inch and 6 inch then losts of 4.5 inch and now 6" again.  The 6" may not be as effective as intended, but it can help make short work of larger destroyers and cruisers while the main guns engage capital ships and cruisers.

(Combat system wise, a TB takes one or two hits and it is destroyed.  Most destroyers can take three, but cannot conduct torpedo attacks after two hits.  Larger destroyers will increase to 4, 5, and 6 hits once they start appearing in ten or so years) 

[Korpen]

Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.

But they outgun any destroyers in the world, and while a cruiser can shoot them to pieces, the opposite is also true, four of these ships will make mince met out of even fairly well-protected cruisers, 20 12cm guns is quite allot of firepower.
As for not being able to catch DDs, good, that is not their job.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I disagree with the cruiser killing capability. Lively little boats simply can't put enough metal, and accurate metal, in the air as to destroy cruisers with 2+ inch belts. With 25 knots max speed, this means 22? 23? in moderate seas.
This class is IMO cruiser-feed.
Borys

[Ithekro]

Well with 4" plus guns they will at least be able to do some damage to a cruiser.  The 3 inch guns won't do anything in most systems (of course most systems don't take into account the German 88mm guns, though some place them at the very bottom of the "I can hurt somebody" scale).

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The 4,7" guns will have half the ROF of 4 inch guns, thus cutting by half the chance of hits. And the penetration is nothing to get excited about ...

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
I disagree with the cruiser killing capability. Lively little boats simply can't put enough metal, and accurate metal, in the air as to destroy cruisers with 2+ inch belts. With 25 knots max speed, this means 22? 23? in moderate seas.
This class is IMO cruiser-feed.
Borys

They can get a sustained ROF of around 5-6 rounds, but with a slightly higher burst speed (about 10rpm). That is a significant amount of fire. And while they will be lively ships, the difference to a 2000 ton light cruiser is not that huge. At long range, then yes a cruiser might have an advantage, but as long as they stay at long range these ships are doing their job admirably.
They are to stop enemy torpedo attack on the artillery ships, and they got more then enough firepower to hurt anything smaller then a capital ship, at ranges of less then 3km their relative instability should not be that significant.

That is the reason why 12cm guns are selected, far superior stopping power. Also a lesson from the Moluccas battle where the TB allowed enemy torpedo crafts to pass them and get between the capital ships and their screen.
And they are as fast in seaway as any other destroyer, and designed to be able to cope with even the worst sea (the reason why they are short, wide and deep).

[Ithekro]

Not much of a torpedo boat though.  A torpedo boat destroyer maybe (rather than a torpedo-gunboat).  Or a fast gunboat?  (or just a destroyer)

While this ship has the firepower of some of protected cruisers (broadsides verse this centerline) they really don't have the size to stand up to many cruisers for long.  Numbers may tell a different story if it is five on one against a 4, 5, or 6 inch armed cruiser, but against any of the armored cruisers, this will be ineffective.  (though it is possible the larger batteries won't be able to hit the destroyers very easily)  Dueling battleships or battlecruisers with these will not be possible as the 4.7" guns will not do a whole lot and the quick fires on most battleships are designed to put little ships like this below the waves as quickly as possible.  Engaging other ships there size, sure they will have an advantage. 

Rohirrim destroyers take that adantage, but also have torpedes if they encounter larger vessels that their guns will not effect.  I'd say they are cheap, but Rohan just doesn't think highly of the torpedo and made these light vessels to see what all the fuss was about in Europe.  With only 21 torpedo boats, the Mark decided it would rather kill the torpedo boats before they come close to the fleet, thus making destroyers instead, but even those were in small numbers until recently.  Minrimmon is the only Rohirrim built cruiser that was built with torpedoes and that was to emmulate the Confederate purchased cruisers.  Rohan has decided so far not to follow up on that design and instead moved on to belted cruisers for superior firepower over the seemingly inaccurate torpedo.

So while I can understand the idea of the light ships as escorts rather than cheap attack craft, it doesn't seem to fit the combat experiance of this (and the Sino-Swiss War) quite right.  A lot of ships have been put away by torpedoes in this war and the previous Asian war.  I guess it comes down to if the nation believes the answer is more torpedoes to run with this advantage, or mount more guns to negate the torpedoe craft before they can launch torpedoes.  Rohan is for blowing the little things up, but keeps the torpedoes in case of an opportunity to strike.

[miketr]

Basiclly useless. If my tactics are properly followed those ships would be dead meat. They cant catch destroyers nor can they sink battleships. Any cruiser would make mincemeat out of them. I too am considering battleline escorts, but these are just too light.

But they outgun any destroyers in the world, and while a cruiser can shoot them to pieces, the opposite is also true, four of these ships will make mince met out of even fairly well-protected cruisers, 20 12cm guns is quite allot of firepower.
As for not being able to catch DDs, good, that is not their job.

I don't see why you expect these ships to do anything to a cruiser of the same generation.  Older PC's sure but new construction?  I don't see it.  There too slow to close the range and while there firepower will be impressive to an unarmored target is useless to anything with any type of protection.  Odds are a cruiser will have something around a 6" gun and be faster than they are.  Leaving them tied to your battleline needing it to protect them.  All they can do is chew up unarmed sections which will cause pain I grant you but it won't kill anything with as Borys pointed more than a 2" belt.

Michael