United States Navy: 1903-04

[snip]

As the title says.

Big notes for 1903:
--I have 1905 Engines. yay.

[snip]

The first turbine destroyer of the USN. Its effectively the previous class with 4" guns and an additional 1000shp.

Lamson Class, United States Destroyer laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   495 t light; 516 t standard; 606 t normal; 678 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (253.00 ft / 250.00 ft) x 23.50 ft x (6.75 / 7.37 ft)
   (77.12 m / 76.20 m) x 7.16 m  x (2.06 / 2.25 m)

Armament:
      5 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.00lbs / 14.97kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      1 raised mount aft - superfiring
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      Weight of broadside 165 lbs / 75 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 shp / 7,460 Kw = 26.32 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 161 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   60 - 79

Cost:
   £0.072 million / $0.288 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 34 tons, 5.6 %
      - Guns: 34 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 326 tons, 53.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 125 tons, 20.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 111 tons, 18.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1.3 %
      - On freeboard deck: 8 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     139 lbs / 63 Kg = 4.4 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.80

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.535 / 0.548
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 87
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.24 ft / 0.38 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.08 ft / 2.77 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,042 Square feet or 376 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 105 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 0.97
      - Overall: 0.54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Logi]

What is the trial speed? Also it seems a little strange to me that seakeeping is so low, but I suppose that is by choice? Guessing from the seakeeping, is the destroyer meant to service only the Caribbean?

Also, I noticed you are at 100% coal instead of 90% - I don't believe the US was limited in discovered oil reserves in the period so I'm a bit puzzled.

[snip]

Trial is 28.81knts.

Just a quick pass at updating the 1902 pattern design, can see what oil spray does.

There was quite a discussion about SS seakeeping and destroyers during N3. Details here, but in short all but the largest historical designs show downright terrible seakeeping under SS ratings. For small designs like this one, I'm not stressing to much, as wet and uncomfortable strikes me as right for a Destroyer of this size. Can try raising freebaord by a little bit, but I don't think much can be done without more of a redesign.

[eltf177]

I'm thinking miscellaneous weight includes torpedoes?

[snip]

I'm thinking miscellaneous weight includes torpedoes?

Correct

[snip]

The new Greyhound of the USN. Ship is built for one thing and one thing only, speed. Has the legs to be a good scout and the turn of speed to serve as a Destroyer Leader. Misc Wieght is for a Long Range and Short Range wireless sets.

USS Morgantown, United States Cruiser laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   3,000 t light; 3,098 t standard; 3,702 t normal; 4,185 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (430.28 ft / 423.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.44 ft)
   (131.15 m / 128.93 m) x 13.72 m  x (5.18 / 5.62 m)

Armament:
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 50.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 210 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1.00lbs / 0.45kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1890 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 93 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.25" / 6 mm      0.50" / 13 mm
   2nd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 25.40 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,086 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   236 - 308

Cost:
   £0.364 million / $1.458 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 81 tons, 2.2 %
      - Guns: 81 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armament: 10 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,650 tons, 44.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,224 tons, 33.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 702 tons, 19.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 0.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,213 lbs / 1,004 Kg = 35.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.60
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.417
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forward deck:   21.00 %,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Aft deck:   44.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.77 ft / 4.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,720 Square feet or 1,089 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 322 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[eltf177]

And again, I'm guessing some of the miscellaneous weight for Morgantown is for torpedo tubes and torpedoes?

[snip]

And again, I'm guessing some of the miscellaneous weight for Morgantown is for torpedo tubes and torpedoes?

All for two wireless sets, a Long Range (25t) and a Short Range (10t)

[eltf177]

And again, I'm guessing some of the miscellaneous weight for Morgantown is for torpedo tubes and torpedoes?

All for two wireless sets, a Long Range (25t) and a Short Range (10t)

Ah, so she's a scout...

[snip]

Now for something a little bigger. Really just a all-big-gun Rhode Island with turbines.

B16 Design A, United States Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   14,600 t light; 15,355 t standard; 16,509 t normal; 17,432 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (456.00 ft / 451.00 ft) x 77.00 ft x (24.50 / 25.68 ft)
   (138.99 m / 137.46 m) x 23.47 m  x (7.47 / 7.83 m)

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 870.00lbs / 394.63kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm 50.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 550 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 7,720 lbs / 3,502 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   284.13 ft / 86.60 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   166.85 ft / 50.86 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   284.13 ft / 86.60 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16,000 shp / 11,936 Kw = 18.31 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,078 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   727 - 946

Cost:
   £1.298 million / $5.190 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,215 tons, 7.4 %
      - Guns: 1,215 tons, 7.4 %
   Armour: 6,680 tons, 40.5 %
      - Belts: 3,058 tons, 18.5 %
      - Armament: 2,061 tons, 12.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,421 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,320 tons, 8.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,174 tons, 31.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,909 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 210 tons, 1.3 %
      - Hull below water: 70 tons
      - Hull above water: 60 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons
      - Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,014 lbs / 11,346 Kg = 29.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.679 / 0.684
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   18.50 %,  18.50 ft / 5.64 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   33.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   18.50 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.19 ft / 4.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,309 Square feet or 2,537 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 736 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Not sure if this is really worth it, thoughts?

[Kaiser Kirk]

It's a reasonable enough all big gun ship, better than the South Carolina on virtually the same specs.
Which actually makes me wonder why that is- probably the effects of the turbines.
Since you're already over 120m, I'd tack on a slight bit and bring those turbines up to 5000hp/each.
I'd also kick the start date back a little so turbine tech is *brand* new. Build the destroyer, then the BB.

Me, I still wonder if with current shells and fire control the all big gun is "better". 

[eltf177]

I like her, but for having turbines she seems a bit slow. I wonder if tinkering to get her speed up by two or three knots would have a serious effect on the design. Might be worth looking into...

[snip]

I cant push her speed up to any appreciable difference from my existing battleships with 4x5000shp turbines, so I saw no need to push the speed higher then my existing battleline. Also, design A still pays lip service to the Congressional limit (which with all the Venusuala business I probably have enough to have TR smack that into oblivion). If I want 21knts, I need to use VTEs and end up with something about 4000t heavier. Just a quick and dirty, note the lack of an upper belt is intentional because of the casemates being on deck. The hoist armor is felt to be sufficient.

B16 Design B, United States Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   18,300 t light; 19,111 t standard; 20,188 t normal; 21,050 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (515.00 ft / 510.00 ft) x 85.00 ft x (27.00 / 27.95 ft)
   (156.97 m / 155.45 m) x 25.91 m  x (8.23 / 8.52 m)

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 870.00lbs / 394.63kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm 50.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 7,660 lbs / 3,475 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   331.50 ft / 101.04 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   178.48 ft / 54.40 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      5.00" / 127 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30,000 ihp / 22,380 Kw = 21.23 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,939 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   846 - 1,100

Cost:
   £1.842 million / $7.367 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,203 tons, 6.0 %
      - Guns: 1,203 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 6,491 tons, 32.2 %
      - Belts: 2,797 tons, 13.9 %
      - Armament: 1,864 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,670 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 160 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,305 tons, 21.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,141 tons, 30.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,888 tons, 9.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 0.8 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Hull above water: 60 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons
      - Above deck: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,637 lbs / 8,454 Kg = 21.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.604 / 0.608
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  23.50 ft / 7.16 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Aft deck:   45.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.80 ft / 4.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,823 Square feet or 2,956 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 744 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I'm more a fan of design A. I feel that the US should only be first in supperfiring, not first into traditional Dreadnaughts. The plan would to have B16-18 replace B1-3, and B19-21 (B16 with 12"/45 and modified armor) replace B4-6. That gives me a nice little core to start building proper Dreadnaughts off of, and also allows someone else to put together high speed and all-big-gun first.

[eltf177]

Your ideas make sense. Does the USN plan any more AC's or will it jump to BC's?