Random Designs

[towtow59]

Hi all, here's the first item I've got, it is based off of the real world Montana class, I came up with it after browsing navweaps, and saw the 18/47 gun which was apparently considered for arming the class, and spawned the thought of what would happen if the ship was armed with 4x3 18" rather than the figure I most often see of a Montana with 4x2 18".

-----------------------------------------------
Montanna, United States Battleship laid down 1943

Displacement:
   75,806 t light; 80,551 t standard; 87,137 t normal; 92,406 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (920.00 ft / 920.00 ft) x 150.00 ft x (34.00 / 35.74 ft)
   (280.42 m / 280.42 m) x 45.72 m  x (10.36 / 10.89 m)

Armament:
      12 - 18.00" / 457 mm 47.0 cal guns - 3,850.00lbs / 1,746.33kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1943 Model
     4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 69.00lbs / 31.30kg shells, 500 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      60 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.99lbs / 0.90kg shells, 600 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     12 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      80 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     30 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      20 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 47,721 lbs / 21,646 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   598.00 ft / 182.27 m   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   23.0" / 584 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      21.0" / 533 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.00" / 152 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 185,283 shp / 138,221 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 11,855 tons

Complement:
   2,535 - 3,296

Cost:
   £46.035 million / $184.140 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7,642 tons, 8.8 %
      - Guns: 7,642 tons, 8.8 %
   Armour: 29,574 tons, 33.9 %
      - Belts: 9,740 tons, 11.2 %
      - Armament: 8,722 tons, 10.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 10,350 tons, 11.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 762 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,785 tons, 5.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 33,805 tons, 38.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11,331 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     151,450 lbs / 68,697 Kg = 51.9 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 14.2 ft / 4.3 m
   Roll period: 16.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.656
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  33.36 ft / 10.17 m,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.84 ft / 7.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 105,716 Square feet or 9,821 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 284 lbs/sq ft or 1,385 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.14
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
---------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts?

[eltf177]

Several things to think about:

- Make the 5-inch battery twins instead of singles
- Secondary Battery armor a bit on the thick side
- Give the design some miscellaneous weight
- Give the design a TDS

[towtow59]

Several things to think about:

- Make the 5-inch battery twins instead of singles
- Secondary Battery armor a bit on the thick side
- Give the design some miscellaneous weight
- Give the design a TDS

Thanks for your input, what would you recommend for the TDS and miscellaneous tonnage?

Edit:
How's this?:
-----------------------------------------
Montana V2, United States Battleship laid down 1943

Displacement:
   79,571 t light; 84,396 t standard; 91,204 t normal; 96,649 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (920.00 ft / 920.00 ft) x 150.00 ft (Bulges 157.00 ft) x (34.00 / 35.80 ft)
   (280.42 m / 280.42 m) x 45.72 m (Bulges 47.85 m)  x (10.36 / 10.91 m)

Armament:
      12 - 18.00" / 457 mm 47.0 cal guns - 3,850.00lbs / 1,746.33kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1943 Model
     4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 69.00lbs / 31.30kg shells, 500 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      60 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.98lbs / 0.90kg shells, 600 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     12 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      80 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     30 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      20 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 47,720 lbs / 21,646 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   598.00 ft / 182.27 m   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      3.50" / 89 mm   598.00 ft / 182.27 m   32.74 ft / 9.98 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 142.00 ft / 43.28 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   23.0" / 584 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      21.0" / 533 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.00" / 152 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 192,251 shp / 143,419 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 12,253 tons

Complement:
   2,623 - 3,411

Cost:
   £47.062 million / $188.249 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7,549 tons, 8.3 %
      - Guns: 7,549 tons, 8.3 %
   Armour: 32,112 tons, 35.2 %
      - Belts: 9,740 tons, 10.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 2,535 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 8,701 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 10,350 tons, 11.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 786 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,965 tons, 5.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 34,604 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11,633 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 0.4 %
      - Hull above water: 200 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 80 tons
      - Above deck: 60 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     163,800 lbs / 74,298 Kg = 56.2 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 37.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 15.4 ft / 4.7 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.654
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  33.36 ft / 10.17 m,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.84 ft / 7.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 173.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 105,716 Square feet or 9,821 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 285 lbs/sq ft or 1,391 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
-------------------------------------------------------------------

[eltf177]

Much better. I personally would add barbette armor to the Secondary Battery hoists but that's just me. A little more miscellaneous weight would be nice as well but again, that's just me.

Kudos on your design! :)

[Logi]

Ship steadiness can be pushed to 70 without stability issues.

Your seakeeping value is low. According to SS at least, it's just average. Those aren't comforting words when a Pacific theater of operations will inevitably include sea state 10.

Also, there isn't enough space between bulkheads. It looks like simply a 1-layer defense at the moment since you have 4ft of depth per side (blisters don't count).

[towtow59]

Thanks for the feedback, I figured that the TDS was a bit weak, but could not find any real details on the historic system, and so made a guess at a minimum possible, which is likely as noted too low for any use. As for steadiness and seakeeping, I knew there was something off so thanks for pointing it out.

Edit: Typo
Can't seem to do much for seakeeping, but stability is up, and I modified the TDS, so how does this look:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Montana, United States Battleship laid down 1943

Displacement:
   86,561 t light; 91,538 t standard; 98,755 t normal; 104,530 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (920.00 ft / 920.00 ft) x 170.00 ft x (34.00 / 35.69 ft)
   (280.42 m / 280.42 m) x 51.82 m  x (10.36 / 10.88 m)

Armament:
      12 - 18.00" / 457 mm 47.0 cal guns - 3,850.00lbs / 1,746.33kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1943 Model
     4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 69.00lbs / 31.30kg shells, 500 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      60 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.98lbs / 0.90kg shells, 600 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     12 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      80 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     30 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      20 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 47,720 lbs / 21,646 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   570.00 ft / 173.74 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      6.00" / 152 mm   598.00 ft / 182.27 m   32.74 ft / 9.98 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 150.00 ft / 45.72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   23.0" / 584 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      21.0" / 533 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.00" / 152 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 205,192 shp / 153,073 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 12,992 tons

Complement:
   2,785 - 3,621

Cost:
   £48.970 million / $195.880 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7,549 tons, 7.6 %
      - Guns: 7,549 tons, 7.6 %
   Armour: 35,631 tons, 36.1 %
      - Belts: 10,025 tons, 10.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 4,346 tons, 4.4 %
      - Armament: 8,701 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 11,730 tons, 11.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 829 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 5,299 tons, 5.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 37,542 tons, 38.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12,194 tons, 12.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 540 tons, 0.5 %
      - Hull above water: 200 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 280 tons
      - Above deck: 60 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     186,735 lbs / 84,702 Kg = 64.0 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 53.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 17.2 ft / 5.3 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.655
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.41 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  33.36 ft / 10.17 m,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  27.30 ft / 8.32 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m,  21.23 ft / 6.47 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.84 ft / 7.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 185.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 119,812 Square feet or 11,131 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 286 lbs/sq ft or 1,397 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
----------------------------------------

[Walter]

Can't seem to do much for seakeeping

Considering that the freeboard is the same in all three sims, that has a lot to do with your beam. The more beam you add, the more it will affect your seakeeping. You started with a beam of 150 feet and a seaboat quality of 1.09, then it became 157 feet and 1.07 and right now it is 170 feet and 1.04. I think if you were to take a beam of 200 feet, you might be at or below a seaboat quality of 1.00.

It kinda makes me think of my Oshima class battleship over at Wesworld but your design is slightly lighter (about 8000 tons).

[Logi]

For a 28kn ship, 52m of beam is way too much. For reference the actual historical Montana design had a beam of 37m. Even the supposed A-150 was to have an estimated 39m of beam. In fact at 52m of beam, you have about the same beam as the H44 proposal, which was to displace 131,000t....

Your excessive beam affected the propulsive resistance... you see that in the fact that your design needs 205,192 shp for 28 kn whilst the original Montana needed only 172,000t.

I took your design and did some quick modifications:
LWL: 280.42m -> 300m
BWL: 51.82m -> 42.6m
Dm: 10.36m -> 11.37m

Main Belt Length: 173.74m -> 195m

Seakeeping: 1.04 -> 1.51

Power required went from 205,192 shp to 192,450 shp. Also the basic dimension modifications my revision pretty close to the H42 proposal.

Montana, United States Battleship laid down 1943

Displacement:
   86,724 t light; 91,700 t standard; 98,755 t normal; 104,399 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (984.25 ft / 984.25 ft) x 139.76 ft x (37.30 / 39.14 ft)
   (300.00 m / 300.00 m) x 42.60 m  x (11.37 / 11.93 m)

Armament:
      12 - 17.99" / 457 mm 47.0 cal guns - 3,850.00lbs / 1,746.33kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1943 Model
     4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 54.0 cal guns - 69.00lbs / 31.30kg shells, 500 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      60 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 1.98lbs / 0.90kg shells, 600 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     12 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      80 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1943 Model
     10 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
     30 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      20 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 47,721 lbs / 21,646 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   639.76 ft / 195.00 m   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      5.98" / 152 mm   597.11 ft / 182.00 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.30 ft / 26.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   23.0" / 584 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      21.0" / 533 mm
   2nd:   2.01" / 51 mm   2.01" / 51 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 5.98" / 152 mm
   Forecastle: 2.01" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.01" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 17.99" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 192,450 shp / 143,567 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 12,698 tons

Complement:
   2,785 - 3,621

Cost:
   £48.675 million / $194.701 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7,537 tons, 7.6 %
      - Guns: 7,537 tons, 7.6 %
   Armour: 36,616 tons, 37.1 %
      - Belts: 10,667 tons, 10.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 4,338 tons, 4.4 %
      - Armament: 10,271 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 10,512 tons, 10.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 828 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,970 tons, 5.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 37,060 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12,031 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 540 tons, 0.5 %
      - Hull above water: 200 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 280 tons
      - Above deck: 60 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     198,132 lbs / 89,871 Kg = 68.0 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 46.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 10.9 ft / 3.3 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.85
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.674 / 0.679
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 31.37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  39.37 ft / 12.00 m,  33.79 ft / 10.30 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  33.79 ft / 10.30 m,  29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  29.53 ft / 9.00 m,  29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  29.53 ft / 9.00 m,  29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      31.47 ft / 9.59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 224.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 107,669 Square feet or 10,003 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 277 lbs/sq ft or 1,354 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Walter]

Looking around a bit, IIRC in one of my books, TBH thickness for Bismarck was given as 45mm (which I think is the only value I know of). This is also the value used in the SS examples. Looking around at those examples, the thicknesses vary between 0 and 4 inch so 6 inch might be overkill (though I cannot be sure). I myself used 3 inch for my Wesworld Yamato class and the Oshima class.

[towtow59]

Thank you both for your feedback, I will admit to not having done many ships this size before, or in this period, so I mostly guessed at what would be used for it, especially for the TDS and measurements. Part of the reason for the lower draught and higher beam than Logi's version was because I did not know if a deeper ship would fit into available harbors, so stuck with the draught that I could find for the original Montana. As for the length, that was based off of the original ship as well, and again did not know if there was a limitation there.

But I thank you all again for your feedback, and hope to have something new in a few days.

[Walter]

Part of the reason for the lower draught and higher beam than Logi's version was because I did not know if a deeper ship would fit into available harbors, so stuck with the draught that I could find for the original Montana. As for the length, that was based off of the original ship as well, and again did not know if there was a limitation there.

Well, it is much too wide for the Panama Canal anyway so there is no need to worry about the depth of the Canal or locks or the length of the locks. Depth of available harbors is probably not too much of an issue either. Just dredge out the harbor so it will fit. So the only real limiting factors would be the slips and/or docks. But even then with some proper planning it should not be too much of an issue.

BTW, here's my Oshima Class from Wesworld. It is SS2 instead of SS3, but it'll give a bit of an indication as to how I simmed a 1940s 4x3 18" battleship...

Oshima, Japan Battleship laid down 1944

Displacement:
94,000 t light; 101,132 t standard; 108,149 t normal; 113,762 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,043.71 ft / 1,020.00 ft x 130.00 ft (Bulges 140.00 ft) x 40.00 ft (normal load)
318.12 m / 310.90 m x 39.62 m (Bulges 42.67 m) x 12.19 m

Armament:
12 - 18.11" / 460 mm guns (4x3 guns), 3,897.77lbs / 1,768.00kg shells, 1944 Model (*)
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
40 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (20x2 guns), 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
40 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (20x2 guns), 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
72 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (12x6 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
208 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (52x4 guns), 0.57lbs / 0.26kg shells, 1944 Model (**)
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 49,721 lbs / 22,553 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 177 (***)
336 - 4.7" / 120 mm above water torpedoes (****)

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.9" / 454 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: 14.0" / 356 mm 140.00 ft / 42.67 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
280.00 ft / 85.34 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 2.25" / 57 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
3.00" / 76 mm 600.00 ft / 182.88 m 50.00 ft / 15.24 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 26.0" / 660 mm 15.0" / 381 mm 20.0" / 508 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
5th: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 9.00" / 229 mm, Conning tower: 20.00" / 508 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 201,732 shp / 150,492 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 12,630 tons

Complement:
2,981 - 3,876

Cost:
£54.883 million / $219.533 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,937 tons, 4.6%
Armour: 41,097 tons, 38.0%
- Belts: 9,917 tons, 9.2%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 3,330 tons, 3.1%
- Armament: 9,016 tons, 8.3%
- Armour Deck: 17,855 tons, 16.5%
- Conning Tower: 978 tons, 0.9%
Machinery: 5,151 tons, 4.8%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 38,814 tons, 35.9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 14,149 tons, 13.1%
Miscellaneous weights: 4,000 tons, 3.7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
171,381 lbs / 77,737 Kg = 57.7 x 18.1 " / 460 mm shells or 34.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 9.1 ft / 2.8 m
Roll period: 19.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.663
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 36.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (25%): 21.20 ft / 6.46 m
- Mid (37%): 26.10 ft / 7.96 m
- Quarterdeck (7%): 19.20 ft / 5.85 m (26.10 ft / 7.96 m before break)
- Stern: 19.20 ft / 5.85 m
- Average freeboard: 25.08 ft / 7.64 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.3%
Waterplane Area: 107,238 Square feet or 9,963 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 270 lbs/sq ft or 1,317 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

(*) Actual main gun shell average weight 1775 kg. 1768kg was used to get a proper value for the magazine weight to be used for the breakdown of shells per gun as given below.

(**) Actual 25mm mounts: 40x4 (= 160 guns). 12x4 25mm mounts simmed for AA Rocket launcher mount.
(****) 12cm Rockets simmed as Torpedoes.

(***) Actual shells per gun
46cm = 120 rounds per gun (3131 tons total)
5" = 500 rounds per gun (735 tons total)
75mm = 1500 rounds per gun (535 tons total)
40mm = 2000 rounds per gun (131 tons total)
25mm = 3000 rounds per gun (306 tons total)

94000
- 80 tons for helicopter landing pad.
- 50 tons for 2 helicopters.
- 400 tons for flagship facilities
- 350 tons for fire control and fire control center
- 200 tons for radar systems
- 940 tons for damage control and fire suppression systems
- 235 tons emergency diesel generators
- 940 tons for air condition system
- 209 tons for degaussing coils
- 75 tons for 12x28 12 cm AA Rocket launchers
- 444 for mount improvements
--- 300 tons for 5" mounts
--- 80 tons for 75mm mounts
--- 24 tons for 40mm mounts
--- 40tons for 25mm mounts
- 77 tons for crew comfort.
Total: 4000 tons

[towtow59]

Well, it's been a while, had some tech issues at my end, but here is something I found on my HD earlier, I think it should be titled "Why I don't make ships while tired" n.b. I know it is a rather bad design, but figured I should share it.

-------------------------------

Enter ship name, Enter country Battleship laid down 1940

Displacement:
   86,089 t light; 90,436 t standard; 95,271 t normal; 99,140 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (900.00 ft / 900.00 ft) x 150.00 ft x (38.00 / 39.31 ft)
   (274.32 m / 274.32 m) x 45.72 m  x (11.58 / 11.98 m)

Armament:
      16 - 16.00" / 406 mm 50.0 cal guns - 2,168.09lbs / 983.43kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
     4 x Quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      28 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 38.01lbs / 17.24kg shells, 300 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1940 Model
     14 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      80 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.11lbs / 0.96kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
     20 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      120 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 3,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
     20 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
     40 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      40 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 35,956 lbs / 16,309 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   14.70 ft / 4.48 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      25.0" / 635 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   36.48 ft / 11.12 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 134.00 ft / 40.84 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 6.00" / 152 mm
   Forecastle: 4.00" / 102 mm  Quarter deck: 4.00" / 102 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 16.00" / 406 mm, Aft 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 195,553 shp / 145,883 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8,704 tons

Complement:
   2,710 - 3,524

Cost:
   £44.946 million / $179.783 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6,630 tons, 7.0 %
      - Guns: 6,630 tons, 7.0 %
   Armour: 43,182 tons, 45.3 %
      - Belts: 7,648 tons, 8.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 16,872 tons, 17.7 %
      - Armament: 6,465 tons, 6.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 10,849 tons, 11.4 %
      - Conning Towers: 1,348 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 5,229 tons, 5.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 30,699 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,182 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 0.4 %
      - On freeboard deck: 350 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     173,235 lbs / 78,578 Kg = 84.6 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 61.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 15.9 ft / 4.8 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.654
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 30.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  33.00 ft / 10.06 m,  27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  27.00 ft / 8.23 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      23.58 ft / 7.19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 103,418 Square feet or 9,608 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 252 lbs/sq ft or 1,232 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.15
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room

[eltf177]

A 25-inch TDS? Cut that down to 5-inches or so. Should improve the design...

[towtow59]

As I said, this was something that I came up with while tired, I think the massive TDS came about due to thinking that I was working in millimeters, but I was so tired at the time that I'm not sure what I was thinking.