OTTOMGWTFBBQ

[The Rock Doctor]

There are some weird dreadnought designs out there, from back in the day where wing turrets were the cat's meow and nobody seemed all that concerned about a torpedo directly exploding against a magazine of 305mm shells.  I thought I'd give this one a shake; bear in mind I can't read a heck of a lot of the text, so a lot of the details are just guesswork.

Deck space for light guns is definitely an issue with this tub.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1909

Displacement:
   20,554 t light; 21,762 t standard; 23,439 t normal; 24,780 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (557.74 ft / 557.74 ft) x 95.14 ft x (24.93 / 26.12 ft)
   (170.00 m / 170.00 m) x 29.00 m  x (7.60 / 7.96 m)

Armament:
      12 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     2 x Triple mounts on sides amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 20.97lbs / 9.51kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts (theoretically, mounted in pairs on the 305mm turrets)
      Weight of broadside 12,306 lbs / 5,582 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   390.42 ft / 119.00 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   167.29 ft / 50.99 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   390.42 ft / 119.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.18" / 30 mm   390.42 ft / 119.00 m   25.20 ft / 7.68 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 88.58 ft / 27.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.81" / 300 mm, Aft 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 44,510 shp / 33,205 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,018 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   946 - 1,231

Cost:
   £2.093 million / $8.371 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,137 tons, 9.1 %
      - Guns: 2,137 tons, 9.1 %
   Armour: 8,145 tons, 34.7 %
      - Belts: 3,492 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 430 tons, 1.8 %
      - Armament: 1,742 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,064 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Towers: 417 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 2,203 tons, 9.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,819 tons, 33.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,885 tons, 12.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.1 %
      - Hull above water: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,731 lbs / 14,847 Kg = 37.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 7.1 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.620 / 0.626
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  24.93 ft / 7.60 m,  24.93 ft / 7.60 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Aft deck:   40.00 %,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m,  17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.24 ft / 5.56 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 39,542 Square feet or 3,674 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 816 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

Sorta reminds me of Dante Alighieri, personaly I just never liked the way wing turrets looked but you are definetly right not much deck space left on this one.

[Walter]

I would sim the twelve 150mm casemate guns as being "on sides, evenly spread" and the four 150mm hull casemate guns as "on side ends, evenly spread"...

... but the bigger problem is that, looking that the picture and the way you simmed the freeboard, all the 305mm gun turrets need to be simmed as being superfiring. The Overall Hull Strength is not going to like that...

[The Rock Doctor]

Oh yeah.  That would be a problem.

[Walter]

With some twisting and turning, you might end up with something like this...

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1909

Displacement:
   20,554 t light; 21,762 t standard; 23,439 t normal; 24,780 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (557.74 ft / 557.74 ft) x 95.14 ft x (24.93 / 26.12 ft)
   (170.00 m / 170.00 m) x 29.00 m  x (7.60 / 7.96 m)

Armament:
      12 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     2 x Triple mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 20.97lbs / 9.51kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 12,306 lbs / 5,582 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      1.18" / 30 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   23.79 ft / 7.25 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 88.58 ft / 27.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.6" / 270 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   3.94" / 100 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
   Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm  Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.63" / 270 mm, Aft 10.63" / 270 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,730 shp / 24,417 Kw = 21.25 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,018 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   946 - 1,231

Cost:
   £2.011 million / $8.044 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,137 tons, 9.1%
      - Guns: 2,137 tons, 9.1%
   Armour: 7,499 tons, 32.0%
      - Belts: 2,996 tons, 12.8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 341 tons, 1.5%
      - Armament: 2,281 tons, 9.7%
      - Armour Deck: 1,506 tons, 6.4%
      - Conning Towers: 375 tons, 1.6%
   Machinery: 1,620 tons, 6.9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,048 tons, 38.6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,885 tons, 12.3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.1%
      - Hull above water: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,157 lbs / 15,040 Kg = 38.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.620 / 0.626
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00%,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m,  22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Aft deck:   40.00%,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.39 ft / 5.30 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.6%
   Waterplane Area: 39,542 Square feet or 3,674 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 939 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't actually consider this to be "crazy" per se, so this is more a matter of floating a trial balloon and seeng whether a variation gets included in my 1901 program.

The Ottomans have a lot of coastline, much of it along some pretty under-developed land with only minimal transportation infrastructure.  So it's logical that there will be some reliance on seaborne transportation of troops and material in peace and war.

While I've got around a half-dozen large transports for moving a battalion (1000 men) over long distances, there are some cases where the sea route isn't actually all that lengthy - Jiddah to Port Sudan (or its equivalent) is 159 nm, while Izmir to Crete is on the order of 260 nm.  These are day trips; the long-term accommodation of a standard troop transport is overkill.

So notionally, I'll build a handful of "troop ferries", built with one-day accommodation in mind.  That's 0.25 t per passenger, plus 0.5 t per passenger for associated equipment/supplies/heavy guns.  Speed's on the high side for the time period to allow sprints or high cruising speed at reduced power.  It's strictly a port to port thing, no independent ability to land troops or cargo in an amphib operations.

I contemplated something capable of lifting a brigade (5000 men = 1,250 t accommodation + 2,500 t cargo) but figure the amount of time need unload and load all that cargo would be a major time-killer.  So I'm eyeballing a smaller ship that lifts a battalion.  One of these could make a round trip between Jiddah and Port Sudan in a day if the cargo movement was efficient and the engines held up.  A one-way trip between Izmir and Crete would accomplished in a day.  Over a period of a week or two, this allows a good number of bodies to be shifted and may make a difference if there's unexpected trouble with the Ethiopians or Greeks.

Thoughts?

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1900

Displacement:
   2,358 t light; 2,414 t standard; 2,724 t normal; 2,973 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (295.28 ft / 295.28 ft) x 49.21 ft x (13.12 / 14.02 ft)
   (90.00 m / 90.00 m) x 15.00 m  x (4.00 / 4.27 m)

Armament:
      1 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 40.0 cal gun - 19.93lbs / 9.04kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1900 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 150 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 20 lbs / 9 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,753 ihp / 2,800 Kw = 16.43 kts
   Range 1,800nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 559 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   188 - 245

Cost:
   £0.166 million / $0.662 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
      - Guns: 3 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 9 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armament: 9 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 586 tons, 21.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 957 tons, 35.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 366 tons, 13.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 803 tons, 29.5 %
      - Hull below water: 500 tons: 
--> 500 t:  Equipment and cargo
      - Hull above water: 303 tons
-->250 t:  Short-term seating for 1,000
-->10 t:  Wireless
-->43 t:  Weight reserve/deck cargo

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,960 lbs / 2,250 Kg = 238.5 x 3.5 " / 88 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.64
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.511
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 193.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,682 Square feet or 899 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 280 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.84
      - Longitudinal: 4.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Tanthalas]

Truth told I actualy like the short range transport, I could proly use somthing like it in DEI honestly.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I was toying with very long range transports for Brigades and Regiments yesterday. Short Range sprinters are worthy of consideration as well. Italy's current transports consist of a single dedicated regimental troopship and a pair of old battleships which in OTL lifted a "Division" each, here a short range 2 Brigade lift. That takes care of reinforcing Sardinia, Sicily, Tunisia, Greece, etc.

Generally I see the need, and like the design. You mention the "engines holding up" and that's something I've been trying to decide for a reasonable evaluation.  Clinker buildup seems to depend on coal type, curiously a book I have mentions that some varieties of brown coal burn completely and don't generate much clinker. However, my thinking is trending towards the notion that 1/4 or 1/5 boilers are out of service for cleaning at any one time, and you shouldn't press the rest past 80% or so sustained. Not firm figures mind you, just where my musings are leading.  Anyhow, under that, I'm shooting for Cruising speed to be only ~50-66% of power requirements.  I don't know where 16.43 is vs. 15 though.

Also, I think 0.25/troop is fine, but the 0.5t for kit is a bit much for Infantry. Might give you slop if you're moving an artillery battery.

[The Rock Doctor]

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of that battalion maybe hauling along a section of field guns or a cavalry troop or something.  Better to have the flexibility than not.

50% power on this thing is...13.6 knots.  Those last three knots are pretty pricey.

[Jefgte]

...Also, I think 0.25/troop is fine, but the 0.5t for kit is a bit much for Infantry...

How much for a horse?

1.5t per horse(?)

[The Rock Doctor]

A horse would be about a tonne, including tack and a day or two of hay. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

the Handbook on German Military Forces, which I think Logi has a link to somewhere, puts 1 man at 2 GRT, 1 horse at 8 GRT and heavy field guns at 20 GRT*.  Which would give a reference point that here horses should be 4x as much....which is what Rocky came up with too.




*Gross Registered Ton, measure of volume- 100ft3, not weight. Conversion for it appears in Springstyle notes.

[The Rock Doctor]

That could be a useful reference.

In my case, I just know how much my horses and tack weigh.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Rocky, you're supposed to ride THEM, not carry.
Jimmy Cricket, you're strong...

[The Rock Doctor]

In Ottoman Turkey, horse rides you.