The Conference of Constantinople, July 1900

[Guinness]

OOC: Sorry guys, getting my stern walk kicked in this week by work. I'm on a plane tomorrow to the Windy City for the rest of the week.

Russia in off the record conversations conveys that they don't really care if Hungary gets the Slovaks or if they're independent. A wise observer might conclude that Russia prefers an independent Slovakia in need of some patronage.

Russia also prefers that Germany not get any more out of this whole affair than necessary, so continues to oppose Czech inclusion.

Russia also comes to the opinion that maybe Slovenia should also be independent, and reminds all the parties that Russia has demanded no territorial concessions, nor any sort of compensation despite considerable Russian expense.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Russia, being the mother nation of all the Slavs, should take Slovakia under its wing in personal union with Emperor Nicholas II. Hungary will stand on it's own under its own King."

OOC : The above most definitely sounds like Russia was making a bid for more territory. Granted, only about 2.8million, 0.5IC, and $1.28. However, Slovakia would have been ~18% of a studetenland-less "Czechoslovakia"'s revenues.  As for the Italian bits, realize that with a combined population of Kustenland (Trieste) and south Tirol are going to be ~0.6million, 0 IC for ~ $0.06 even adding the .5 of Carinola only gets to 1.1m 0IC and $0.11. So while culturally and historically important, the Italians are not posed to gain anything of importance.

Subsecretary Tittoni resumes the floor :

Gentlemen, we have all returned from our respite and whispered words.
I believe I speak for all of us in endorsing the union of the Austrian Crownlands  with the German Empire. The allowance has been made for the Italian speaking regions to join the rest of Italy, for which we are grateful. Further, I do not believe any are opposed to the Independence of the Kingdom of Hungary.

However, both the Kingdom of Italy, and the Russian Empire, support the notion that Hungary be shorn of her northern Slavic provinces, as a penance for the problems they have caused.

None have spoken in opposition to these ideas, and so I believe we can term them settled.

This putative slavic nation carved from Hungary would be of less than 3 million people, difficult to thrive on it's own. We shall address that later.

There is the issue of half million people in the Duchy of Carinola, with a slice of Styria, dominated by Slovenes. The Russians advocate independence. Our allies, concerned about their kinsmen in Gottschee, are reluctant to give the Slovene majority independence and are willing to continue Austrian, now German control, or transfer it to Italy. The latter choice is acceptable to both Italy and the Ottomans and would allow the ethnic slovenes to visit relations without crossing national borders. We propose that   

The remaining contested issues are regarding the Lands of the Bohemian Crown, albeit I do not believe there is opposition to the Germanic peoples of the Duchy of Silesia or the border regions of Bohemia from joining the German Empire.

The Kingdom of Italy has advanced the notion that we should forestall future conflicts such as that which has led to the Hungarian revolt by joining the Bohemian lands  with the slavic nation carved from Hungary to form a viable nation.  The Russians do not prefer that option and advocate a state centered on Bohemia and Moravia with a separate nation for that taken from Hungary. We unfortunately find our German allies in adamant opposition to this concept, insisting that they annex not only the Austrian Crownlands but also the slavic lands under the Bohemian crown.  The United Kingdom, Rumania and Ottomans have not opined on this matter.



The Kingdom of Italy recognizes that the Bohemian Crown rightfully belongs to the Hapsburg line, that the Bohemian Crownlands have evidenced unrest but have not rejected said rule, and there is no strong support for the proffered alternatives, The Kingdom of Italy will concede the lack of support for her suggestion, and endorse the German & Austrian proposal to include those lands with the annexation of the remainder of the Austrian Empire.

Which leaves the orphan Slovak state of three million souls. Given that the Hungarians revolted when their ability to oppress subject peoples was threatened, the Kingdom of Italy is loathe to leave these peoples under the thumb of the Magyars. As is the case with the Slovenians scattered through the Kurstenland, Carinola and Styria, these slavs are kin to those in Bohemia and Moravia. As such we suggest this region be united with the Bohemian Crownlands.  While we recognize the Russian Empire will be unlikely to endorse this, we hope the other delegates will do so.

[miketr]

OOC Current we have Germany, Austria (but they voted to become part of Germany), Italy, Ottomans and Russia taking part in the talks.  The British are attending but have not chosen to take part in the talks.

Germany wants all of the cake
Russia wants a free Hungary, doesn't care much as to the fate of the Slovaks and doesn't want the Czechs part of Germany.
Italy has suggested spinning off Czechs and Slovaks into unified state of their own.

Ottomans have mostly acted the part of the good host.

IC

The German Chancellor stands up, "Gentlemen we have agreed to a number of points but we also have a number of items of disagreement.  Europe has come close to war over this issue and while I would hate for things to slip over the edge the German Empire does have reasonable points that we simple can't leave unaddressed."  At a motion of the Chancellors hand aids walk around and give a folder with to each of the representatives at the conference table.     

Inside is a map of the Austro-Hungarian border.  A part of Hungary is shaded and labeled Burgenland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland

"This territory while it has been part of the Kingdom of Hungary it is overwhelmingly populated by ethnic Germans.  The German Empire intends to annex this territory and requests that this conference ratify that decision.  Now I would like to turn to the main point of contention, the fate of the Czechs.  Let us assume for a moment that the German Empire were to agree to this suggestion.  What of the fate ethnic Germans that still remain in this new Czech state?  Especially German majority cities in the Margraviate of Moravia but surrounded by Czechs? Also a Czech state, whatever its final borders would intrude deep into the newly expanded German Empire.  If the Czechs were hostile it would present a intolerable security threat." 

[Darman]

St. John Brodrick finishes reading the telegram aloud to the rest of the British delegation.  "Well, now that that's settled, we have some work to do," Baron James says, leaning forward and beginning to shuffle through the papers in front of him. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

The Kingdom of Italy will concede the lack of support for her suggestion, and endorse the German & Austrian proposal to include those lands with the annexation of the remainder of the Austrian Empire.

The question of the minorites on the far side of ancient borders from their ancestral lands is one which poses interesting questions.

Let us use an example from lands far from here.  In the United States and Argentia, hundreds of thousands of my people have emigrated and now populate entire areas.  Can the Italians of the Lower East Side of New York City succeed from the USA because they hold a localized majority? NO !  I submit that no one here would recognize a right of secession, or to claim the land for Italy. While we extend citizenship to many, we recognize they are citizens of their new country first and foremost.

As a general principal, if a realm allows foreigners to settle within her borders over the centuries, there may come a time when the native peoples of the realm are locally outnumbered by the foreigners. However, as the foreigners emigrated under the tacit understanding they were joining the realm and it's native peoples, I would postulate that as guests there is an implied surrender of the right to declare independence or secession from the original realm even if the foreigners form a localized majority.

Now, the medieval colonization of many areas of Eastern Europe by peoples of the Holy Roman Empire must be considered to fall in the above category, though we Italians do maintain they have a right to proper treatment as citizens of those areas. Likewise, a conquest of a principality followed by seeding of it with loyalists must be viewed with suspicion.

This brings us to this last issue, the Burgenland and it's like.  As my Austrian compatriots can avow, the Hapsburgs encouraged movement of their peoples within their crownlands for economic reasons. This has resulted in such things as silesian miners brought to some mineral rich areas historically belonging to the Kingdom of Bohemia, but both the Duchy of Silesia and Kingdom of Bohemia were lands of the Hapsburg crown.

We submit that in these cases, where a people have been settled at the behest of the state in a new land just across an ancient border from their homeland, both under the control of a single ruler, we may consider that action a de facto border adjustment. To that end, we should formalize it by drawing the new bounds to a mountain crest or river or some geographic break.  Some of each race will be on the "wrong" side of the border, but that can not be helped.

[miketr]

OOC anyone going to post?  Guinness had real life issues to deal with a bit over a week ago.  I am just wondering if that is still the case or not?

Kaiser Kirk and I have posted a few times in between and got one private response from another party but that is it.

Is anyone else going to get involved?

[snip]

Maybe someone should hit Jef with a PM to make sure he is aware of all this.

[Jefgte]

Winners will share AH spoils.
The people appreciate.

Jef

[miketr]

Winners will share AH spoils.
The people appreciate.

Jef

OOC Jef my two bits and what I expected to happen is that France would be jumping up and down screaming... NO NO NO!!!  Even if Germany is losing an ally its set to absorb over half of said ally making Germany bigger and stronger.  Your lack of action has been the biggest surprise to me on this little plot.

[Tanthalas]

Not saying Jef is thinking exactly what I am, but the Dutch reaction to it is going to be in my news shortly.  It will make us a bit nervous, but it will also make us cautiously optomistic.  the logic behind the optomisim being that while yes Germany just got alot stronger it will take them quite some time to actualy digest the big bite they just took out of AH (or are about to take as the case may be).  This should hypotheticly prevent Germany from looking for any aditional forign adventures for several years.

Winners will share AH spoils.
The people appreciate.

Jef

OOC Jef my two bits and what I expected to happen is that France would be jumping up and down screaming... NO NO NO!!!  Even if Germany is losing an ally its set to absorb over half of said ally making Germany bigger and stronger.  Your lack of action has been the biggest surprise to me on this little plot.

[miketr]

Tanthalas fair enough.

As a FYI I am waiting for other people to act just to be clear.

[Kaiser Kirk]

OOC:
I'm paused until Rocky and Guinness return from Real Life (always takes precedence) matters.
It does sound from the post earlier like the British might say/do something.

Once they've posted, unless something substantive is said, I say we break it down into a list of options and vote on it.
meanwhile I've projected out my budget to 1906 and gee, I'm poor. :)

[Tanthalas]

and I thought I was bad having projected as far as 1903 H2 LOL

meanwhile I've projected out my budget to 1906 and gee, I'm poor. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

OOC:  I'm around.  The Ottomans are in a bit of a quandry - generally pleased at the idea of their friend Germany getting stronger, but also somewhat miffed and alarmed at the German representative's implication that the Sultan is not fit to rule Christians.  So at the moment, they're just trying to keep a poker face and be good hosts.

[Darman]

OOC: I'm around too, I've just been a bit busy to write a substantive news article.  I've dropped a few snippets that should help in my own news feed.