The Conference of Constantinople, July 1900

[Guinness]

OOC: It seems the French have found the flair for the dramatic they once demonstrated in Nverse3.  ;D

[miketr]

Bernhard von Bülow stands, "Gentlemen again the conference, other than Italy, has failed to address in anyway the legitimate concerns of the German Empire with respect to ethnic Germans that might end up outside of the German Empire.  The Germans of Burgenland now in Hungary and the Germans of Bohemia and Moravia in the cities of Brünn, Iglau and Olmütz.  If there is not some type of response the German Empire will consider taking... unilateral action."

The German diplomat than makes a motion and ads passout some papers to the other delegates, "We have a compromise to suggest."

1)   All ethnic German majority areas of Bohemia and Moravia will be ceded to the German Empire.
2)   The Czech majority areas of Bohemia and Moravia will become its own state and have its foreign policy within limits.
3)   The new Czech State will enter the German Customs and Postal Union.
OOC Germany does NOT get control of the IC or BP of Czech State, this is same situation with Luxemburg its part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands but in customs union with Germany.  This allows the German cities of Moravia and Bohemia to function and not be cut off.
4)   There will be free movement of people between the Czech State and German Empire. 
5)     The Czech State will adhere to standards of the German Empire with respect to border control.
6)   A commission will define the new borders between Germany and the Czech state.
7)   The Czech state is forbidden to have armed forces beyond that of a civil gendarme sufficient to keep order.  As such the Czech state will not be allowed to maintain fortress, artillery, machineguns and other weapons or munitions of an army.  Any such are to be destroyed.
OOC Czechs can have small arms like Rifles and side arms but that's it.
8)   The Czech state is to be perpetually neutral and the borders defined above are to be under international guarantee.
One year after the treaty goes into effect people that live in the territory of the new Czech state, whatever their nationality will be citizens of it.  The same applies for any of those people living in lands to be annexed to Germany.
     
If this agreement is accepted but for whatever reason the Czech state breaks it, especially but not limited to item 8 the German Empire would consider it a Casus belli.

[The Rock Doctor]

The Ottoman minister of state glanced around the room, noted the official silence and unofficial mutterings and scribblings of the other delegates, and said, "The Ottoman Empire has no particular objections to this proposal."

[Darman]

OOC: taking matters one issue at a time

IC:
The British and French delegation aides begin handing out a sheet, as the British envoy stands. 

Britain and France believe that every lawful nation has the inalienable right to the means of self-defense, the extent of those means varying in accordance with the needs and desires of the nation in question.  It would be the height of folly to suppose that any outside nation could dictate what a neighboring nation needs for its own national army.  Britain and France would move to reject the notion that another nation can dictate unilaterally, the armies available to another, and expect such dictation to be legally applied.

[miketr]

"Mr. Ambassador if there is to be a Czech state it is going to be surrounded on three sides by Germany and the vast majority of its border is to be with Germany.  If the Czech Nation decides to field an army then such an army is most likely to be directed at Germany with the goal of seizing German lands that were formerly part of the Kingdom of Bohemia and Moravia.  The Czechs by themselves aren't a threat to the German Empire but in combination with others that is another possibility."

The German Chancellor waves the Foreign Minister to take a seat and then stands to address the conference, "Excellencies I would remind you all that Bohemia and Moravia have been part of the various forms that the German Kingdoms have taken for a thousand years.  Half a millennium before the Romanov's ruled in Russia the Czechs were part of the German Nation.  Before William, Duke of Normandy sailed to conquer England the Czechs were part of the German Nation.  If the German Empire is to make the massive compromise in releasing the Czechs after the chaos of the final disintegration of Austria Hungary then Germany's concerns need to be meet.  If it is so critical for the Czechs to have a army then they can keep the one that they have as subjects of the Hapsburg Emperor and part of Austria...  They can keep their army as part of Greater Germany.  If having a military matters more to the Czechs then they can join Germany with the rest of Austria or if their own foreign policy matters more then they can trust an agreement by all of the powers to see to the protection of their borders and do without an army."   

[Guinness]

OOC: Sorry guys, Mrs. Guinness had to jet off to a funeral this weekend, so I was playing Mr. Mom.

Ambassador Kapnist rises. "I'd like to thank his Excellency the Chancellor for his most comprehensive history lesson. Nonetheless, Russia is forced to agree with Britain and France. Any sovereign nation must retain the responsibility of it's own self defense. Russia is prepared to stipulate just that for independent Hungary and Slovakia as well. We do recognize the Czech territory's current involvement with trade with Russia and Germany and will not oppose the Czech nation's integration in the German customs union."

[miketr]

"Excellencies you are all establishing a new precedent, IE that sovereign nations can't be subject to limitations on their armed forces.  Peace treaties requiring the destruction of fortifications, preventing the movement or stationing of troops in certain regions all become invalid on their face.  Let us consider a pair of treaties that affect our host, the Ottoman Sultan.  The Treaty of the Dardanelles 1809 and the London Straits Convention 1841 which in brief forbid use of the Turkish Straights by military vessels, even ones of Turkish allies while in time of war.  Should our host consider these treaties null and void?"

[Kaiser Kirk]

During the German presentation of a client state status, Undersecretary Tittoni maintains a professionally bland expression, but Prince Tommaso looks displeased. Notes and whispered commentary pass between him and the others while the British make their presentation, followed by the German rebuttal. Finally, the Prince stands, and states "If you shall excuse us gentlemen, Admiral Aubry shall monitor matters for us.  The Prince and Undersecretary depart to the hall to discuss matters. The German Ambassador follows shortly.

After a short period of time, they return and Undersecretary Tittoni requests the floor.
"Gentlemen, since others have now raised the Czech question, we wish to recognize the German and Austrian willingness to explore the matter. Substantive concerns regarding Germanic minorities just over border areas have been raised. I have heard no objection to redrawing the borders such that those areas with a majority of ethnic Germans contiguous to German territory shall be rejoined with their countrymen.

That leaves the status of the Slavs, and the protection of minority peoples. I suggest the latter be subject for all parties to this territorial division to address internally or by treaty.

Which brings us back to the Czechs. The Germans have correctly observed the long term historic and economic links.
They have graciously offered to include the Bohemian and Moravian areas within their trade union to ensure market access. Likewise, we have pledged that should Trieste be rejoined to Italy, we will place minimal tariffs such that the new nations will have a vital port service.

The Germans have also observed that the long borders of Bohemia present a defensive problem should a ill inclined nation gain undue influence. Thus they proffered the unsavory slate of safeguards. I have another to proffer - Seven Hundred years ago, the Golden Bull of Sicily set the Bohemian and Moravian crowns separate from the rest of the Holy Roman Empire, but since King Wenceslaw's Grandson, Charles V, took the throne in 1500, the Hapsburgs have ruled.  Here we sit, debating severing these lands from the Hapsburg throne, why?

Would not bequeathing  the Austrian Crown and the Bohemian & Moravian Crowns to separate Hapsburg lines not resolve the issues of Independence, Security and Minorities while also possessing the utmost legitimacy?"

[Guinness]

Kapnist: "So Italy proposes that we install, I believe I understand, different members of the Habsburg family as sovreigns over each of the Czech and Slovak states?"

[Jefgte]

French delegation add about article 7 in the German text


=> Like every state in Europe (& in the world), Czech state could have police & army proportional to its economy.
=> Germany didn't decide to allow army to Italy state, Russia state or Czech state.
=> Czech state army could be defensive (if Germany is afraid by this small neighbor).

No state could prohibit a neighboring state to have an army. This is interference

[miketr]

Bernhard von Bülow, "The objections by various nations for clause 7 is noted.  Are there any objections to the rest of the document?  What about the annexation of Burgenland?"

In response to the Russian question, "That appears to be the suggestion offered by Italy."

[Kaiser Kirk]

Undersecretary Tittoni :

Close, but not quite.
Just in case those present have yet to tire of my voice, let me explain in a slightly different way....

What we are currently proffering as a suggestion is that an independent slavic state be established.

While there has been mention of one, two or three separate areas, we are suggesting that for matters of economic viability, the majority slavic peoples of Bohemia, Moravia and the slavic rump of Hungary should be unified in this matter.

To further nourish this economic viability, the Kingdom of Italy will pledge that, presuming the Italian peoples of Trieste are allowed to reunify with our Kingdom, no more than a 1% import/export tariff will be assessed on all goods originating in or traveling to these new nations. The German Empire has likely pledged to include them in their economic union, in a status such as Luxembourg, which should spur their prosperity.

The boundaries of these ancient lands would be revised logically to geographic breaks so that areas with ethnic German majorities congruent to the lands of the German Empire will be transferred to the German Empire. This should go a great ways to ensuring that a source of enduring friction does not occur.

This however does not address the German concerns regarding their peoples isolated within the slavic lands, nor the security concerns mentioned. We have noted that many present, such as our esteemed French colleague, are disturbed by these proposed terms.

Therefore we are suggesting a simple solution that does not require those restrictions. The Bohemian and Moravian crowns are, and have been, in the Hapsburg line- a Germanic Royal House - for centuries.

So do indeed we suggest that Archduke Ferdinand, who is joining the German Empire, graciously abdicate in favor of a member of house of Hapsburg, separating those crowns. Thus the Slavic State will be independent and viable, but there shall always be a voice mindful of the ethnic and security issues at the highest level.

And here I'm just going to stick in a map to give folks a general idea.
Basically the "German" Austria Bohemia and Moravia go to the German Empire.  While the Bohemia and Slovakia become one Independent Kingdom. On the same Map, Hungary would be indepedent,  East and West Galicia are already Russian here, Croatia and Vovjadna are Ottoman, part of Transyvania would be Rumanian.  Italy is to get southern Trentino and the western edge of Carinola, if not all of Carinola. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria#mediaviewer/File:Greater_austria.png

[Guinness]

Kapnist fiddles in his chair a bit, and give a meaningful look to other members of the Russian delegation.

"If the installation of members of the Habsburg dynasty is agreed, what would the process be for selecting them, and what would the rules of succession be?"

[Kaiser Kirk]

Undersecretary Tittoni consults quickly with the Prince, then requests the floor.

"In response to our honored Russian associate, in the event the Archduke is willing, we would hope he would so designate a relative to lead this new cadet branch of the House of Hapsburg. We are however most open to suggestions on alternate processes.

As for succession, I do I confess we have been viewing this future state through the lens of a constitutional monarchy, with a strong monarch, such as we ourselves have.  While our system was designed comparatively recently and sought to blend the best of Monarchy and Democracy, http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,6601.0.html; 

The birth of Princesses Nina and Xena and no sons have suggested that perhaps reliance on Semi-Salic (i.e. sons 1st, then daughters) law would be robust in ensuring an secure succession.  I would suggest that to avoid a mess such as we saw in Hungary, the accession to the crown by the Heir should be automatic, though it might be wise to give the parliament the ability by, say ¾ vote, exclude an infirm or incompetent heir from succession.

If adoption of semi-salic laws thus allows for Queens, in the tradition of Maria Theresa, are allowed, the pool of suitable individuals expands. 

Currently Archduke Ferdinand's line is not secured by children, and heir is his brother, Archduke Otto who we understand has a malady. Which leaves his younger brother Archduke Ferdinand Karl the only Hapsburg male of majority suitable to succeed Archduke Franz in the Austrian Throne. This would exclude them from the line for the Bohemia and Moravian Crowns.

This suggests a suitable candidate be sought elsewhere in the House.  While numerous candidates could be vetted, Prince Tommaso has suggested that Franz Joseph's eldest daughter, Archduchess Gisela, be given the Crown. If semi-salic law had been in effect, she would have been heir to those Crowns, given a distinct legitimacy to the process. We understand the Bavarians have bequeathed the Archduchess with the honorific "Good Angel from Vienna " for her charitable works.  Her husband, Prince Leopold of Bavaria is of exceedingly good repute, and they have four children, 3 of majority. The Bohemian and Moravian Crowns would then rest in the hands of those possessing knowledge, connections, proven ability and gravitas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduchess_Gisela_of_Austria

If that does not sufficiently separate the lines of succession, we would suggest Archduchess Gisela's younger sister Archduchess Marie. As condition to her marriage, she has already renounced claims to the Austrian crown. The Archduchess and her husband, Archduke Franze Salvator, is a Prince of Tuscany, are also of good repute, and have 5 children, alas none of majority. We however consider it possible they may be asked to the Hungarian throne, as the Archduchess was the first royal child conceived and born in Hungary in an age.



Whispered conversation
Vice Admiral Aubry : Dear lord, the Undersecretary loves the sound of his own voice
Lt. General Antonio Baldissera :  I'm trying to figure out how to weaponize it, I'm certain it could lull the enemy to sleep.

[miketr]

OOC Franz Ferdinad already abdicated in game and is to be Duke of the new Duchy of A-L within the German Empire.  Besides a Czech nationalist tried to kill him in game.  Sick or not Otto is next in line and he has an heir the 13 year old Charles.  Hapsburg Succesion law drives this. With only one person between him and the Austrian Throne I suspect that Ferdinand Karl wouldnt take another throne.

Leopold of Bavaria, husband of the suggested Gisela, is the younger brother of the current Regent of Bavaria.  Said Regent has several male heirs.  So they would work for a Ducal or Grand Ducal throne of Bohemia and Morovia.  If the Slovak lands are included then a kingdom makes sense.  If seperate one of the dethroned Hapsburg Dukes of the Italian duchies works for Slovakia.