Dutch Ships 1900 on

[Walter]

Well, looking on Navweaps at the various guns around 4" and taken into service prior to 1910...

Germany 10.5 cm/40 (4.1") SK L/35 (1894)
- Kurfüst Friedrich Wilhelm: 100 as commissioned, later 145

Germany 10.5 cm/40 (4.1") SK L/40 (1900)
- Early Gazelle class:  100 rounds
- Later Gazelle class, Bremen, Königsberg and Dresden:  150 rounds
- Tiger:  241 rounds

Germany 10.5 cm/45 (4.1") SK L/45, SK C/06, Flak L/45, Tbts L/45, Ubts L/45 (1907)
1907 to 1918
- Cruisers:  150 rounds (later increased to 183)
- G96 and V170 Destroyers:  80 rounds
- V25 Destroyers (as rearmed):  70 rounds
- B97 Destroyers (as rearmed):  80 rounds
- Submarines:  Between 100 and 250 rounds

Britain 4"/50 (10.2 cm) BL Mark VII (1908)
- Indomitable (as rearmed) and Indefatigable:  100 rounds
- Bellerophon:  200 rounds
- St. Vincent:  150 rounds (peace), 200 rounds (war)
- Colossus, Neptune, Orion, Queen Mary, Lion and King George V:  150 rounds
- Others:  N/A

Britain 4"/40 (10.2 cm) QF Marks I, II and III (1896)
- Invincible:  100 rounds
- Others:  N/A

... so even a value as low as 100 would probably be deemed acceptable by naval planners of around 1905...

[Tanthalas]

*head smack* I didn't even think about hitting navweps... oh well they are floating ammo lockers atm then (I will proly go back to 150 per gun)

[Tanthalas]

so Logis 12.5K BC got me thinking (and messing around with Spring sharp) this is what said ship would look like in Dutch Livery, actually came out really nice IMHO.  I wont be building it (just doesn't have a spot in my fleet plans even though I like it) but I thought I should post it up in case it gave someone else ideas.  although I will admit if I had come up with it sooner it would likely have been built in place of my 16.5K BC.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   12,500 t light; 13,047 t standard; 14,224 t normal; 15,166 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (481.00 ft / 476.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (29.00 / 30.46 ft)
   (146.61 m / 145.08 m) x 21.34 m  x (8.84 / 9.29 m)

Armament:
      6 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 665.99lbs / 302.09kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      23 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model
     22 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      1 hull mount in casemate- Limited use in all but light seas
      2 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,746 lbs / 2,153 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   407.00 ft / 124.05 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm     69.00 ft / 21.03 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   2.25" / 57 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.25" / 57 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 1.25" / 32 mm  Quarter deck: 1.25" / 32 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 8.00" / 203 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 32,213 ihp / 24,031 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 7,700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,118 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   650 - 846

Cost:
   £1.500 million / $5.999 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 859 tons, 6.0 %
      - Guns: 859 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 2,702 tons, 19.0 %
      - Belts: 1,228 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armament: 594 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 779 tons, 5.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 4,622 tons, 32.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,038 tons, 28.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,724 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 279 tons, 2.0 %
      - On freeboard deck: 279 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,316 lbs / 3,318 Kg = 11.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.515 / 0.523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.76 degrees
   Stern overhang: -7.00 ft / -2.13 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   19.60 %,  24.00 ft / 7.32 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Aft deck:   34.30 %,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Quarter deck:   16.10 %,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m,  14.50 ft / 4.42 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.59 ft / 4.75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 131.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,511 Square feet or 2,091 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 617 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.86
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

For anyone who is interested... this is what both the 14K and 16.5K ships look like (there is only a 6" difference in length, although I have drawn both).  Came out rather nice IMHO, possibly a bit modern looking but I think I struck a reasonable balance on it.


(Click to see full size)

[Jefgte]

Nice drawing.
She is looking like a short HMS Lion  :)

[Tanthalas]

Built to Civilian Standard (I think) Merchant Ship/Freighter/Transport/Collier.  Not very sexy IMHO but it is something I need at least a few of.  4000 tons light so if I have the rules right would only cost me $1.00 and 1 BP per hull.  I intend to build at least 6 of them as troop transports (would give me enough lift to move 1 Division aka 25000 men).  Based loosely on the OTL Victory/Liberty ships.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   12,334 t light; 12,625 t standard; 13,706 t normal; 14,571 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (462.43 ft / 441.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.50 ft)
   (140.95 m / 134.42 m) x 18.90 m  x (8.53 / 8.99 m)

Armament:
      2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1904 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   0.50" / 13 mm      0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 6,630 ihp / 4,946 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,946 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   633 - 823

Cost:
   £0.587 million / $2.347 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 58 tons, 0.4 %
      - Guns: 58 tons, 0.4 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 961 tons, 7.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,809 tons, 20.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,372 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8,496 tons, 62.0 %
      - Hull below water: 4,167 tons
      - Hull above water: 4,167 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 162 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,148 lbs / 6,871 Kg = 140.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.627 / 0.632
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 34 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.55 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   8.20 %,  30.50 ft / 9.30 m,  27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forward deck:   41.80 %,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   41.80 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   8.20 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.56 ft / 5.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,137 Square feet or 1,871 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 412 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Built to Civilian Standards
Misc Weight
8334 tons Transport Capacity
25 tons long range wireless
137 tons "stuff" (aka I got no clue what it is at this point)

[Walter]

Don't forget...

Miscellaneous weight set aside for troop or passenger quarters, boats, aircraft/hangers/elevators/flight decks, wireless, fire control, and other components is considered functional miscellaneous weight and is included in the cost of construction.

... so if you want the design to move troops, you can't subtract the miscellaneous weights or (and that is something the mods will need to tell us if that is allowed) do what I talked about with someone (I believe with Darman in the chat) and that is to build it like that (with non-functional miscellaneous weight) and with an overhaul or a refit turn the miscellaneous weights from non-functional into functional so it can be used as a troop transport.

aka I got no clue what it is at this point

A stall aboard the ship where people can buy Gouda cheese. ;D

[Tanthalas]

My thought was to build several of them as "freighters" and then convert some of them to troop ships (much as was done with the Liberty/Victory ships OTL).  So more or less along the lines of your "or" point.  If that is a no go I will have to reconsider my plans.  in the plan for the conversions the 137 tons would be for extra boats/landing craft (much like the APAs the US built in WW2).

Don't forget...

Miscellaneous weight set aside for troop or passenger quarters, boats, aircraft/hangers/elevators/flight decks, wireless, fire control, and other components is considered functional miscellaneous weight and is included in the cost of construction.

... so if you want the design to move troops, you can't subtract the miscellaneous weights or (and that is something the mods will need to tell us if that is allowed) do what I talked about with someone (I believe with Darman in the chat) and that is to build it like that (with non-functional miscellaneous weight) and with an overhaul or a refit turn the miscellaneous weights from non-functional into functional so it can be used as a troop transport.

aka I got no clue what it is at this point

A stall aboard the ship where people can buy Gouda cheese. ;D

[Logi]

and now for the WTF version... Seriously how did I make this work... Checked everything multiple times it is all there, based loosely on a couple OTL ships and it somehow works... Unless someone sees a glaring error I will likely build this...

CLX-1904, Unified Netherlands Second Class Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   3,000 t light; 3,104 t standard; 3,391 t normal; 3,621 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (383.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 39.10 ft x (15.50 / 16.30 ft)
   (116.74 m / 115.82 m) x 11.92 m  x (4.72 / 4.97 m)

....

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,353 shp / 14,437 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 516 tons (90% coal)

....

I noticed that your ship has a beam of 11.92m despite having 4 shafts. As far as I could tell the thinnest ship with 4 shafts OTL was the Konigsberg (1905) at 13.2m. Since you mentioned checking it against OTL ships, do you know of an even thinner ship with 4 shafts?

[Tanthalas]

There is a Destroyer Logi, I will have to find it again (may have been a series of DDs cant remember, but it is in one of my books)

Ok I went through my books here ya go the ones that are similar.

Arethusa class Cruiser 4 shafts on 39'/11.9 meter
Cricket Class Destroyer 3 shafts on 17.5'/5.3 meter
Swift Class Flotilla Leader 4 shaft on 34'/10.4 meter
Bahia Class Cruiser 4 shaft 39'/11.9 meter

I know there are more but that's the ones I could find easy/quick

[Tanthalas]

my latest attempt at a CL, gave up on keeping it at 3K and went up to 3500 tons (should still hypothetically be a one year build time)  MUCH better ship over all I think, the high points are as follows.  Improved armour, Increased range, Uniform battery of 6" guns while maintaining a 7 gun broadside (verse the previous mix of 4" and 6" guns)... so basically everything that makes a ship better is well better.

CLX-1904-2, Unified Netherlands Second Class Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   3,500 t light; 3,641 t standard; 4,108 t normal; 4,482 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (450.00 ft / 447.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (16.50 / 17.61 ft)
   (137.16 m / 136.25 m) x 12.19 m  x (5.03 / 5.37 m)

Armament:
      7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1904 Model
     7 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 700 lbs / 318 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.75" / 19 mm   0.25" / 6 mm      0.50" / 13 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 841 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   256 - 333

Cost:
   £0.423 million / $1.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 202 tons, 4.9 %
      - Guns: 202 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 344 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armament: 17 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 310 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 17 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,631 tons, 39.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,268 tons, 30.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 608 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 55 tons, 1.3 %
      - On freeboard deck: 55 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,127 lbs / 965 Kg = 19.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 12.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.487 / 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.18 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.33 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17.70 %,  20.50 ft / 6.25 m,  18.50 ft / 5.64 m
      - Forward deck:   15.30 %,  18.50 ft / 5.64 m,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Aft deck:   51.00 %,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Quarter deck:   16.00 %,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.24 ft / 4.04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 144.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,778 Square feet or 1,094 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 337 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.16
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

55 tons Misc Weight
25 tons long range wireless set
30 tons stuff (aka I havnt decided what yet, consider it a reserve for the moment)

[Logi]

The ship form is excessive

Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.487 / 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.18 : 1

You could bring it back to form by shortening the hull length.

[Tanthalas]

Logi are you referring to the BC or the Length to beam ratio, not trying to be argumentative just not sure which you are referring to, I inserted the rules for clarity.

the rule states

Length to Beam Ratios of 12:1 (smaller, faster ships) or 10:1 (larger or slower ships) or less are reasonable and do not risk moderator-inflicted incidents.  Ships approaching circular shape risk moderator-inflicted performance issues.

0.38 is the absolute minimum.  Coefficients should be reflective of the size and speed of the vessel.

so going by that 11-1 and a .487 would seam reasonable to me for a not small but also not large ship, that is for the period fast (admittedly what constitutes fast varies by era).  she is based on Yūbari  which comes in at 11.32-1 the Arethusa class is the same 11.18-1 I ended up at, like 3/4 of the British period CLs come in at 10.88-1.  BCs on the other hand are all over the damn place from a high of .505 to a low of .472.

[Walter]

What are the definitions for "smaller, faster ships" and "larger or slower ships"? Just like that it is rather vague. To me the design is not smaller or faster but it is not larger or slower either.

Looking at wiki for the Yubari, the image indicates a length (wl) of 459 feet and a beam of 39 feet and 6 inches. That would be a l:b ratio of 11.62:1. Although the Arethusa has an l:b ratio of 11.18:1, that is based on the ship's length (oa) and not length (wl).

[Tanthalas]

I am going by Conways numbers Walter (admittedly not always accurate)it gives WL and over all on both Yubari and Arethusa, which is where I got my numbers.

What are the definitions for "smaller, faster ships" and "larger or slower ships"? Just like that it is rather vague. To me the design is not smaller or faster but it is not larger or slower either.

Looking at wiki for the Yubari, the image indicates a length (wl) of 459 feet and a beam of 39 feet and 6 inches. That would be a l:b ratio of 11.62:1. Although the Arethusa has an l:b ratio of 11.18:1, that is based on the ship's length (oa) and not length (wl).