Naval needs of the Unified Netherlands

[Tanthalas]

Since I have recived aproval for my Unified Netherlands proposal I started looking at what I realy "need"... and I have come to a conclusion that somewhat saddens me.  With an empire that literaly spans the globe, im not sure my traditional "slow" heavily armed and armored ships would serve me all that well.  I am considering taking up the Jeune Ecole school of Naval thought honestly.  Opinions are welcome, and it most likley wont matter until im doing post startup ships.

[Guinness]

Recap for me what the holdings are again?

My guess is pretty close to historical strategy. Some cruisers, some coast defense ships for distant stations, and some torpedo craft.

Also, the Russians (and their French friends) are probably appreciative of the Dutch for hosting the Hague Convention, and strategically the Russians are quite concerned about the situation in the Pacific. If the Dutch have holdings in the East Indies in our timeline, there could be some interesting conversations....

[Tanthalas]

I have as it was discussed anyway Basicly everything the Netherlands/Belgium held OTL (with as I understand it the exception of Congo).  So yes all the OTL Dutch Pacific Holdings of Circa 1900 are yes mine to defend, along with fairly substantial holdings in the Caribian.  This is what got me thinking about the fact I will need Cruisers, lots and lots of Cruisers. 

Recap for me what the holdings are again?

My guess is pretty close to historical strategy. Some cruisers, some coast defense ships for distant stations, and some torpedo craft.

Also, the Russians (and their French friends) are probably appreciative of the Dutch for hosting the Hague Convention, and strategically the Russians are quite concerned about the situation in the Pacific. If the Dutch have holdings in the East Indies in our timeline, there could be some interesting conversations....

[miketr]

So no Treaty of London 1839, no break up of the united state and this brings up an interesting problem, Luxembourg.

With no revolution creating Belgium then there is no annexation by Belgium of over half of the then Duchy of Luxembourg.  At this point in time, 1830's, the king of the Dutch is monarch of all 3 areas, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. 

So with no break up do we still get Bismarck offering France southern Belgium / Netherlands and then welshing on the deal when German public freaks over Napoleon III's attempt to buy Luxembourg?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_Crisis

If this crises doesn't occur and I don't see how it can with a united Netherlands then it opens up some problems.

1) Luxembourg is still personal union with Dutch Monarch
2) There is Prussian / German Garrison in Luxembourg city per the Treaty of Vienna 1815.
3) What is the economic / political situation of Luxembourg?  It was a member of the North German Confederation and part of the customs union.  Its possible that without the crises it is still part of the North German Confederation when the Franco-Prussian war kicks off..  So is King William III of the Netherlands in his role of Duke of Luxembourg one of the German Princes offering homage to Kaiser William I the new German Emperor; IE is Luxembourg part of Germany?  I don't know how likely this is as a undiminished Luxembourg has a BIG ethnic French population and other issues.


Michael

[Tanthalas]

I actualy argued for more or less exactly that Mike, and got shot down more or less due to the fact that my PoD would be before the official one.  Instead we get this (which is fairly simple atleast)

Revisions to Dutch and Belgian history post 1875 to provide for Unification Circa 1900

1887 Revision of the Nassau Family Pact by William III of The Netherlands to allow for female Heirs (Essentially the 1907 revision 20 years early) allowing Wilhelmina to take both the Dutch throne and become Grand Dutchess of Luxembourg.

1890 King William III dies on 23 November (per OTL).  Wilhelmina ascends to both the Dutch throne and is Named Grand Dutchess of Luxembourg, her Mother is apointed Regent.

1895 Philippe of Belgium Commits Suicide on 17 November, making his son Albert Heir Primus of Belgium

1898 Wilhelmina Queen of the Netherlands weds Albert I of Belgium Heir Primus to the Throne of Belgium

1899 Leopold II assaniated by Italian anarchist Gennaro Rubino on the 15th of November.  Albert I ascends to the Throne of Belgium (6 years Earlier than OTL)

1900 Albert I of Belgium and Wilhelmia of The Netherlands are haild as Co Monarchs of a Unified Netherlands on January 1st

so the low countries are Unified circa 1900, not the best solution IMHO (that would have been to just keep them unified in the 19th century) but it works sort of anyway.

[miketr]

OK so the POD is 1887 and not 1830?

If that is the case then Luxembourg is in economic union with Germany as historic but the Queen of the Netherlands is still monarch, the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg IE its in personal union.

So crises of 1867 happened as historic so no big German controlled fortress sitting in Luxembourg.

Michael

[Tanthalas]

Yeah, I anticipate Dutch/German Relations to be relitivly warm, lets face it even unified the low countries are only a speed bump to Germany or France.  Going to be interesting avoiding getting invaded by one or the other...

OK so the POD is 1887 and not 1830?

If that is the case then Luxembourg is in economic union with Germany as historic but the Queen of the Netherlands is still monarch, the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg IE its in personal union.

So crises of 1867 happened as historic so no big German controlled fortress sitting in Luxembourg.

Michael

[miketr]

A 1900 unification of Belgium and the Netherlands voids the treaty of 1839, that or the Dutch queen just broke it for love...

So it has interesting diplomatic considerations.

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

I imagine the Dutch would want a decent little fleet train to start with, too - colliers, transports, a couple of survey ships.

[Tanthalas]

I was thinking I will proly need at a minimum 2 Coaliers, and one "liner" initialy.  I hadnt considerd Survey ships, but that is also somthing im likley to need...

I imagine the Dutch would want a decent little fleet train to start with, too - colliers, transports, a couple of survey ships.

[miketr]

Netherlands East Indies is between Japan and UK so its defense position is difficult.  IJN is going to be too powerful to stand off.

Michael

[Darman]

Netherlands East Indies is between Japan and UK so its defense position is difficult.  IJN is going to be too powerful to stand off.

Michael

Who happen to be allies in 1900...

[Jefgte]

About "la Jeune école", I wrote:
"
"La Jeune école" recommandations was observed for the building of the 54t - 35m TB, built from 1885 to 1890.
This class of 51 ships was built by different shipyards. Results were catastrophic, most of them, were surcharged & bad seaboat,
during "Grandes Mannoeuvres" (naval exercices), they were unable to attack battleships due to poor performances & some of them capsized.
Different reports & studies were made to have better ships.
"Le Ministère de la Guerre" wrote recommandations for the next 1892 class:
Bigger ships (100t to 125t) - Good seaboat - 250nm range - 21kts"
"
=> Don't use too small TB, 100t is the minimal.
=> Second class BB (stronger than an AC) could be an interresting & economic option for UN.
for ex: French 6500t CBB4; Téméraire class

Jef  ;)

[Tanthalas]

The Dutch find themselves in an interesting posistion, in Europe they have to be afraid of both France and Germany, Making the UK and Russia logical allies (enemy of my enemy and all that), however in the Pacific the UK is allied to Japan, making them less than ideal allies (seriously who would the UK pick to support if Japan declared war on the Netherlands)...  Although the Financials are alot better than they would have been OTL for Belgium just by itself, and as one Country the 3 present more than just the minor speed bump they were OTL to any military adventures.

Netherlands East Indies is between Japan and UK so its defense position is difficult.  IJN is going to be too powerful to stand off.

Michael

Who happen to be allies in 1900...

[Tanthalas]

About "la Jeune école", I wrote:
"
"La Jeune école" recommandations was observed for the building of the 54t - 35m TB, built from 1885 to 1890.
This class of 51 ships was built by different shipyards. Results were catastrophic, most of them, were surcharged & bad seaboat,
during "Grandes Mannoeuvres" (naval exercices), they were unable to attack battleships due to poor performances & some of them capsized.
Different reports & studies were made to have better ships.
"Le Ministère de la Guerre" wrote recommandations for the next 1892 class:
Bigger ships (100t to 125t) - Good seaboat - 250nm range - 21kts"
"
=> Don't use too small TB, 100t is the minimal.
=> Second class BB (stronger than an AC) could be an interresting & economic option for UN.
for ex: French 6500t CBB4; Téméraire class

Jef  ;)

im actualy thinking about somthing like this Jef, not realy a cruiser, not realy a battleship (honestly it is the predread version of a Battle Cruiser)

Zeeland, Netherlands Armored Frigate laid down 1895 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   9,000 t light; 9,429 t standard; 10,842 t normal; 11,972 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (414.00 ft / 414.00 ft) x 63.00 ft x (27.00 / 29.20 ft)
   (126.19 m / 126.19 m) x 19.20 m  x (8.23 / 8.90 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 45.0 cal guns - 39.99lbs / 18.14kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      Weight of broadside 3,396 lbs / 1,540 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      6 - 16.0" / 406 mm, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m torpedoes - 0.298 t each, 1.790 t total
   In 6 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   274.00 ft / 83.52 m   13.50 ft / 4.11 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   274.00 ft / 83.52 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   1.50" / 38 mm         -               -
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,751 ihp / 12,497 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,543 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   530 - 690

Cost:
   £0.953 million / $3.813 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 614 tons, 5.7 %
      - Guns: 612 tons, 5.6 %
      - Weapons: 2 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 2,891 tons, 26.7 %
      - Belts: 1,727 tons, 15.9 %
      - Armament: 448 tons, 4.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 609 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,617 tons, 24.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,803 tons, 25.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,842 tons, 17.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.7 %
      - Hull below water: 10 tons
      - Hull above water: 5 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 60 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,670 lbs / 4,386 Kg = 14.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 6.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.539 / 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.35 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.50 ft / 4.11 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,015 Square feet or 1,674 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 543 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

75 tons Misc. weight on torpedos and stuff