Italia 1900 restart

[Kaiser Kirk]

The first post is a plea for help....

My research on the Italian fleet finds that in 1883 they ordered a series of Torpedo Boats from Thornycraft.
At 14 tons, little gnatss. Two were embarked on each of the Duilio class battleships.

With Centaro they ordered the lead 39ton craft from Thornycraft, and then built several in Italy.

They do try some larger MTBs, with a 108 ton from Yarrow...and Venice...in 1885

Then in 1887, they ordered 17 TBs, all 78tons from Schichau in Germany.
Then between 1887 and 1894 they proceeded to build 80 more domestically, to the same general 78 ton. 39m plan.

Followed by 1888's fancy with some 137 ton vessels from Schichau.

Overall, it's 120 MTBs. Displace as much as an armored cruiser, very nice for the Dalmatian coast, err Adriatic.
Our MTB tech starts in 1905 with something about what the Italians were fielding in 1887. That's a bit too late.

My attempts to sim have failed.  The BC just drops too low for our rules. Don't know what to do.
Anyone able to come up with a decent ship?

L: 39, 39.8oa (ram bow, stern overhang)
B: 4.80
D: 2.01
Tonnage, Normal : 78  (with the LxBxD, I get a BC of 0.205, which is out of range right there)
Arm : 2x1 37/25, 2x 35cm TT

1 shaft, coal fired, VDE, 902-1080hp, 21-22kts, about 1.5m freeboard from the pic. I'd guess 500+nm range.
http://navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_dd_72s.htm

[The Rock Doctor]

I decided to tweak the beam and draught while aiming to keep speed, displacement and length generally historically consistent.

The result isn't awful.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1890

Displacement:
   71 t light; 73 t standard; 78 t normal; 82 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (130.58 ft / 127.95 ft) x 13.12 ft x (4.27 / 4.40 ft)
   (39.80 m / 39.00 m) x 4.00 m  x (1.30 / 1.34 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1.45lbs / 0.66kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1890 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3 lbs / 1 kg

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,300 ihp / 970 Kw = 20.68 kts
   Range 500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   13 - 17

Cost:
   £0.009 million / $0.038 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0.8 %
      - Guns: 1 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 48 tons, 62.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 20 tons, 25.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 2.6 %
      - Hull above water: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16 lbs / 7 Kg = 10.3 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 8.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.68

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.387
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 74
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.98 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m,  4.59 ft / 1.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      4.59 ft / 1.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 205.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,020 Square feet or 95 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 15 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 12 lbs/sq ft or 58 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.01
      - Overall: 0.54
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[snip]

Give them VTE's the tech tree was in error (and has now been corrected). The 1890 level was intended to allow VTEs from the getgo. Other then that I dont see anything wrong with Rocky's sim from a legality standpoint.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'll leave that for Kirk to fiddle with.

Not a bad point-defence ship, though.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks Rocky,
my mind was stuck in the hamster wheel of I have these historical dimensions and they SO aren't working out.
Esp at the historical speeds.
I'll tinker with it, but I bet I wind up with a clone. I figure I'll build just one or two types of MTBs to simplify things.

[Jefgte]

1890, Italia TB1890 laid down 1890

Displacement:
   78 t light; 80 t standard; 83 t normal; 85 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (130.58 ft / 130.58 ft) x 13.12 ft x (4.23 / 4.30 ft)
   (39.80 m / 39.80 m) x 4.00 m  x (1.29 / 1.31 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1.56lbs / 0.71kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1890 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3 lbs / 1 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 15.0" / 380 mm, 13.99 ft / 4.27 m torpedoes - 0.250 t each, 0.500 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.31" / 8 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1 180 ihp / 880 Kw = 20.03 kts
   Range 250nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   13 - 17

Cost:
   £0.010 million / $0.040 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 2.1 %
      - Guns: 1 tons, 0.9 %
      - Weapons: 1 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 1.9 %
   Machinery: 50 tons, 60.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 24 tons, 28.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 tons, 5.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1 tons, 1.2 %
      - On freeboard deck: 1 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19 lbs / 9 Kg = 12.1 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.404
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  5.51 ft / 1.68 m,  7.22 ft / 2.20 m
      - Forward deck:   34.00 %,  5.31 ft / 1.62 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Aft deck:   34.00 %,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m,  5.25 ft / 1.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      5.52 ft / 1.68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 52.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 1 055 Square feet or 98 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 18 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 12 lbs/sq ft or 58 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.63
      - Overall: 0.56
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks Rocky, Jefgte, between the two "looks" I should be able to generate something reasonable.

Still working on my concept for an 1880s PC with a ram and large bore gun mounted along the spine (lessons of Lissa).
I know, as the ship pitches up and down it will be harder to aim, so needs to be some giant casement mount,
perhaps nickname it the wave motion gun.

[snip]

1880s

While we are not outright disallowing it, we really really want most combat ships to be in the 1890-1899 bracket.

[The Rock Doctor]

Thanks Rocky, Jefgte, between the two "looks" I should be able to generate something reasonable.

Still working on my concept for an 1880s PC with a ram and large bore gun mounted along the spine (lessons of Lissa).
I know, as the ship pitches up and down it will be harder to aim, so needs to be some giant casement mount,
perhaps nickname it the wave motion gun.

I await this with great anticipation...

[Kaiser Kirk]

1880s

While we are not outright disallowing it, we really really want most combat ships to be in the 1890-1899 bracket.

Hmm, well, historically, 7 of the Italian Predreadnaughts were laid down prior to 1890. Overall, about 170,500 tons afloat in 1900 were laid down prior to 1890. Now in the mid-late 1890s, several were refurbished, rearmed and sometimes reengined- including some PDs.

Another issue is build rate, at 8BP/Half, that's 160,000 of the 240BP they get, of which ~40,000 should be "on the ways", so only ~120,000 of the navy should be 1890-1900 builds. Without deductions for the aforementioned reconstruction, or consideration they were building infrastructure in this time frame.

So, I'm happier to have more recent ships, they will be more capable overall, and we can just hand wave the problem that they couldn't actually build such a fleet in such a time frame....

Or, I could continue with a young/old mix, but be more aggressive about "refits" in the 1890s.

Ideas ?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks Rocky, Jefgte, between the two "looks" I should be able to generate something reasonable.

Still working on my concept for an 1880s PC with a ram and large bore gun mounted along the spine (lessons of Lissa).
I know, as the ship pitches up and down it will be harder to aim, so needs to be some giant casement mount,
perhaps nickname it the wave motion gun.

I await this with great anticipation...

I'm somewhat inspired by anime, Traveller, and the USN's dynamite gun. If the Ram was successful at the battle of Lissa, and QF shell guns were ~1885, then a small, fast closing target ram would be hard to stop. Add a BL 10" gun spinally mounted on it, and targeting is simple- aim the ship at the target, choose elevation, pull lanyard. OTL the Italians fielded Torpedo cruisers instead, so I was going to replace them with these if I could make the build work.

Anyhow, here is the 56S 78ton MTB.
Looking at our Torpedo tech, I upped the Torp mounts to 16" and allocated 1/2 ton each as that what the 1890 tech is.
I presume they simply refitted them for the "killer app" tube.

56S, Italia Motor Torpedo Boat laid down 1888 (Engine 1890)

Displacement:
   71 t light; 73 t standard; 78 t normal; 82 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (130.58 ft / 127.95 ft) x 13.12 ft x (4.27 / 4.41 ft)
   (39.80 m / 39.00 m) x 4.00 m  x (1.30 / 1.34 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 25.0 cal guns - 1.38lbs / 0.63kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1888 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline forward
      Weight of broadside 3 lbs / 1 kg
      2 - 16.0" / 406 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedoes - 0.000 t each, 0.000 t total
   In 1 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,189 ihp / 887 Kw = 20.25 kts
   Trial Speed: 26.37
   Range 500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   13 - 17

Cost:
   £0.009 million / $0.037 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 48 tons, 61.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 21 tons, 27.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1 tons, 1.3 %
      - On freeboard deck: 1 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 lbs / 8 Kg = 11.2 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
   Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 8.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.386
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.31 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m,  4.76 ft / 1.45 m
      - Average freeboard:      4.76 ft / 1.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 199.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 964 Square feet or 90 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 18 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 12 lbs/sq ft or 60 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 0.55
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[snip]

Im going to make a big reference to this somewhere as everyone seems to keep missing it. Do not use the built in Torpedo function. At all.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Im going to make a big reference to this somewhere as everyone seems to keep missing it. Do not use the built in Torpedo function. At all.

At all?
I got we weren't supposed to rely on it for weight, which is why there's 1 ton of misc weight for the 2x 0.5 ton 16"
I didn't get the "At all" part.
but thats why we post drafts

Any this is a quick example of the type of vessel I was talking about as a Ram.
The Piemonte was the first in the world with QF guns (supposedly), and she was laid down in 1887, finished 1889.
These would likely replace the Etna Class of 1884, 4x 3474

Ariete, Italia Ram laid down 1884

Displacement:
   3,994 t light; 4,144 t standard; 4,917 t normal; 5,535 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (390.42 ft / 374.02 ft) x 43.64 ft x (19.69 / 21.61 ft)
   (119.00 m / 114.00 m) x 13.30 m  x (6.00 / 6.59 m)

Armament:
      1 - 10.00" / 254 mm 32.0 cal gun - 500.45lbs / 227.00kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading gun in casemate mount, 1884 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      4 - 5.98" / 152 mm 32.0 cal guns - 94.83lbs / 43.01kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1884 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 30.0 cal guns - 11.87lbs / 5.38kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1884 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 951 lbs / 431 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   318.24 ft / 97.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 131 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm         -         3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck: 1.18" / 30 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm  Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,059 ihp / 6,758 Kw = 19.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,391 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0.419 million / $1.675 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 93 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 557 tons, 11.3 %
      - Belts: 205 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armament: 105 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 248 tons, 5.0 %
   Machinery: 1,780 tons, 36.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,363 tons, 27.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 923 tons, 18.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 4.1 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,001 lbs / 1,361 Kg = 6.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.536 / 0.549
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  14.76 ft / 4.50 m,  14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  14.76 ft / 4.50 m,  14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  6.76 ft / 2.06 m,  6.76 ft / 2.06 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  6.76 ft / 2.06 m,  6.76 ft / 2.06 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.76 ft / 3.28 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,238 Square feet or 1,044 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 383 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

This ram is intended to charge towards her foe and transfix them with the 100 ton forward ram

The foreward 10"/32 mk II gun is fixed in traverse, but can elevate and depress, it is aimed by aiming the ship and hurtling towards the foe. A massive gun shield protects the weapon from ahead fire.

Behind the main gun are the double stacked casements of the 6" guns (ala Omaha CLs)

Scattered along the sides of the vessel are light anti TB guns.

The ship is designed as a protected cruiser, with 30mm flat, and 80mm slopes (50mm belt)

[Kaiser Kirk]

1880s

While we are not outright disallowing it, we really really want most combat ships to be in the 1890-1899 bracket.

Hmm, well, historically, 7 of the Italian Predreadnaughts were laid down prior to 1890. Overall, about 170,500 tons afloat in 1900 were laid down prior to 1890. Now in the mid-late 1890s, several were refurbished, rearmed and sometimes reengined- including some PDs.

Another issue is build rate, at 8BP/Half, that's 160,000 of the 240BP they get, of which ~40,000 should be "on the ways", so only ~120,000 of the navy should be 1890-1900 builds. Without deductions for the aforementioned reconstruction, or consideration they were building infrastructure in this time frame.

So, I'm happier to have more recent ships, they will be more capable overall, and we can just hand wave the problem that they couldn't actually build such a fleet in such a time frame....

Or, I could continue with a young/old mix, but be more aggressive about "refits" in the 1890s.

Ideas ?

So no further guidance from Snip on this.  What I'm doing is trying to reverse build. Produce variants of OTL vessels, amalgamating classes, figure out what they could have been spending tonnage on starting in 1899 and working back. Anyhow, that way I'll wind up with the youngest fleet possible. 

Historically, the older vessels were refitted in the 1890s, and I will have some older hulls with rebuilds as a result, notably the Italia class, which will actually be Dullio-Italia hybrids. Historically only Duillio was rearmed with 10".

Meanwhile I'm bogged down on trying to figure out the historic weapons and shell weights to use. Then I'll take in some real weapons from other navies, and finally produce some Ahistoric with the Naval Guns Reseach...but that doesn't scale for <8" worth a darn.


Oh, and on the "Ram"  - OTL, in 1882 the Italians laid down the Giovanni Bausan which was the first "torpedo ram"...at 3079tons and 18kts she sported 2x 1 10" guns, and 6 x 152mm. The Etna class followed.

[snip]

Im a bit tied up today, so I can respond in more detail later. Is there a reason you wont just do construction from 1890-1899 with nothing funky?