IJN, Post-1900

[Logi]

You specified same tonnage... I'ld hardly qualify 2750t as 2550t. I understand your point about dropping speed but I regard speeds greater than 25 kn as of now as entering into DD/TB territory. Due to the fact that there are cruisers at speeds of 23-24kn for which 25kn is too thin a margin to escape.

The reason I didn't have gun shield and conning tower armor is to avoid reducing traverse speed for the guns and splinter formation in the conning tower.

Perhaps this is closer to what you would prefer?

Omono, IJN Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   2,650 t light; 2,756 t standard; 2,982 t normal; 3,163 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (334.65 ft / 334.65 ft) x 43.96 ft x (16.90 / 17.59 ft)
   (102.00 m / 102.00 m) x 13.40 m  x (5.15 / 5.36 m)

Armament:
      5 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     5 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      Weight of broadside 419 lbs / 190 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.50" / 38 mm   0.51" / 13 mm            -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm  Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.50" / 38 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 18,650 shp / 13,913 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 407 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   201 - 262

Cost:
   £0.316 million / $1.263 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 85 tons, 2.8 %
      - Guns: 85 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 285 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armament: 23 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 256 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,426 tons, 47.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 836 tons, 28.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 332 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 0.6 %
      - On freeboard deck: 18 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,286 lbs / 583 Kg = 15.4 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.428
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  15.75 ft / 4.80 m,  14.11 ft / 4.30 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.07 ft / 3.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,171 Square feet or 852 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 302 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight - 18t:
   8t - 4 x 45cm side rotating TTs lowered with 1 reload each
10t - Short-Range Wireless

But that's still a bit of a destroyer leader rather than a cruiser... so:

Omono, IJN Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   2,700 t light; 2,817 t standard; 3,046 t normal; 3,229 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (341.21 ft / 341.21 ft) x 43.96 ft x (16.73 / 17.42 ft)
   (104.00 m / 104.00 m) x 13.40 m  x (5.10 / 5.31 m)

Armament:
      6 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     5 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 503 lbs / 228 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.50" / 38 mm   0.51" / 13 mm            -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm  Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.50" / 38 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 18,727 shp / 13,970 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 413 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   204 - 266

Cost:
   £0.324 million / $1.296 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 102 tons, 3.3 %
      - Guns: 102 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 296 tons, 9.7 %
      - Armament: 27 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 262 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,439 tons, 47.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 860 tons, 28.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 346 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0.1 %
      - On freeboard deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,322 lbs / 600 Kg = 15.8 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.425 / 0.433
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  15.42 ft / 4.70 m,  14.11 ft / 4.30 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.04 ft / 3.37 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,383 Square feet or 872 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 308 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight - 4t:
   4t - 2 x 45cm side rotating TTs with 1 reload each

[eltf177]

Now we've lost firepower. And the protection gained isn't enough IMHO to justify that. Your original thoughts were on the right track, we've led you astray... :-[

[Logi]

A revisit to the destroyer leader version...
2,200t -> 1,500t
25kn -> 25.21kn
3000nm@10kn -> 4000nm@10kn
24 mines -> 0 mines
1.51 seakeeping -> 1.01 seakeeping

Omono Scheme B, IJN Destroyer Leader laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,564 t standard; 1,783 t normal; 1,958 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (305.12 ft / 295.28 ft) x 26.25 ft x (14.76 / 15.90 ft)
   (93.00 m / 90.00 m) x 8.00 m  x (4.50 / 4.85 m)

Armament:
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 335 lbs / 152 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 15,000 shp / 11,190 Kw = 25.21 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 395 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   136 - 178

Cost:
   £0.205 million / $0.819 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 59 tons, 3.3 %
      - Guns: 59 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 953 tons, 53.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 465 tons, 26.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 283 tons, 15.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 0.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 16 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     472 lbs / 214 Kg = 5.6 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 12.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.545 / 0.556
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.17 ft / 0.66 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  20.01 ft / 6.10 m,  18.37 ft / 5.60 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.66 ft / 3.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,385 Square feet or 500 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 222 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.03
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight: 16t
10t - Short Range Wireless
   6t - 2x1 457mm Torpedo Tubes rotating centerline, 2 reloads each

[Jefgte]

24 mines -> 0 mines

-> That mean special ship to built for minelayer job.

Jef

[Logi]

That's true... a small escalation in ship size allows for mines to be carried.
1,500t -> 1,600t
25.21kn -> 25kn
0 mines -> 11 mines
Short Range Wireless -> Long Range Wireless

Omono Scheme B2, IJN Destroyer Leader laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   1,600 t light; 1,680 t standard; 1,908 t normal; 2,091 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (315.35 ft / 305.12 ft) x 26.25 ft x (14.40 / 15.52 ft)
   (96.12 m / 93.00 m) x 8.00 m  x (4.39 / 4.73 m)

Armament:
      6 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
     2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      Weight of broadside 503 lbs / 228 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.51" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 15,000 shp / 11,190 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 411 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   143 - 187

Cost:
   £0.221 million / $0.884 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 89 tons, 4.7 %
      - Guns: 89 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 8 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 978 tons, 51.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 484 tons, 25.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 308 tons, 16.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 2.1 %
      - On freeboard deck: 40 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     513 lbs / 233 Kg = 6.1 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.579 / 0.589
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.30 ft / 0.70 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  20.67 ft / 6.30 m,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m,  7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.83 ft / 3.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,743 Square feet or 534 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 227 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight: 40t
25t - Long Range Wireless
   4t - 2x1 457mm Torpedo Tubes rotating centerline, one reload each
11t - 11 mines

[Logi]

Just for fun - with the way the Japanese destroyers are headed this is likely what is in store (a focus on firepower and torpedo loadout at the cost of speed):

I considered having double (+50t) radar & fcs for redundancy but I decided having 6000nm@10kt instead of 4000nm@10kt was much better.

Fubuki, Japanese Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,571 t standard; 1,716 t normal; 1,832 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.72 ft / 383.86 ft) x 37.07 ft x (10.50 / 10.96 ft)
   (120.00 m / 117.00 m) x 11.30 m  x (3.20 / 3.34 m)

Armament:
      6 - 4.72" / 120 mm 55.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1915 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
      1 raised mount - superfiring
      Weight of broadside 331 lbs / 150 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.18" / 30 mm      1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 24,784 shp / 18,489 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 261 tons

Complement:
   133 - 173

Cost:
   £0.286 million / $1.142 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 91 tons, 5.3 %
      - Guns: 91 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 29 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 29 tons, 1.7 %
   Machinery: 743 tons, 43.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 503 tons, 29.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 216 tons, 12.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 135 tons, 7.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 85 tons
      - Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     542 lbs / 246 Kg = 10.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.402 / 0.411
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.35 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.98 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25.00 %,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m,  19.03 ft / 5.80 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.60 ft / 4.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,770 Square feet or 815 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 173 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.18
      - Overall: 0.54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight: 98t
   25t - Fire Control System
   25t - Radar
   48t - 4 x 3 53cm TT rotating centerline with one reload each
   25t - Long-Range Wireless
   12t - 12 depth charges and rails at fantail

[Alikchi]

You don't really expect the game will have radar by 1916, I hope? That seems.. not fun.

[eltf177]

You don't really expect the game will have radar by 1916, I hope? That seems.. not fun.

IIRC in an earlier version of the game the French had ERADe, an early version of radar. Have no idea how it worked...

[Logi]

It is an early form of radar with and is listed is the tech tree as follows:

Radar technology (double-time tech)
1905: Early Huelsmeyer-type "radar", listening dishes, War tuba's.

Historically it was marketed as a way to prevent ship collisions and so that will be it's role. It will better enable destroyer night battles without the extensive use of searchlights (which is a separate tech) as that will make the destroyers a huge target. They will be able to keep their lights off whilst avoiding other ships whilst maneuvering.

Of course whilst this has great value to destroyers, it has much less value for larger ships. As such the IJN is likely not to include these early forms of RADAR on cruisers and capital ships.

[Logi]

Updated Katori

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   21,000 t light; 22,039 t standard; 23,091 t normal; 23,933 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (508.53 ft / 508.53 ft) x 79.72 ft x (28.61 / 29.52 ft)
   (155.00 m / 155.00 m) x 24.30 m  x (8.72 / 9.00 m)

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      16 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 10,378 lbs / 4,707 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   508.53 ft / 155.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   508.53 ft / 155.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   3rd:   14.0" / 356 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.48" / 63 mm
   Forecastle: 2.48" / 63 mm  Quarter deck: 2.48" / 63 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.02" / 356 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 21,688 ihp / 16,179 Kw = 19.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,894 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   936 - 1,217

Cost:
   £2.060 million / $8.240 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,939 tons, 8.4 %
      - Guns: 1,939 tons, 8.4 %
   Armour: 9,622 tons, 41.7 %
      - Belts: 5,314 tons, 23.0 %
      - Armament: 2,565 tons, 11.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,499 tons, 6.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 245 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 3,355 tons, 14.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,755 tons, 24.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,091 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 328 tons, 1.4 %
      - Hull below water: 8 tons
      - Hull above water: 20 tons
      - Above deck: 300 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,157 lbs / 11,411 Kg = 29.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.697 / 0.700
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  17.22 ft / 5.25 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.17 ft / 4.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,402 Square feet or 3,010 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 717 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Tanthalas]

Not intended a knock on the proposal but at first look it is a bit big isn't it? the Lord Nelsons were only 15,604 tons normal, with a similar gun load out, although not AQY and on that note can you even do MMB and AQY? (my reading of the rules is that we cant mix the 2 which admittedly could be wrong).  Armour looks like total overkill to me... 12" for the main belt and 10" for the upper are proly plenty to defeat any period gun (heck most of our guns cant pen 9" at any kind of range).

Basically I think it proly falls into the same area my fast wing turret ship falls into, a sort of grey area in the rules.  Something that was never covered cause no one ever bothered to do it... That said it could possibly be refit to be a sorta budget dreadnought (which is what I think the rules intended to prevent), pull the 8" twins off and replace them with 12" singles (hypothetically possible) and you have a "cheap fast dreadnought".

But then again, I'm not a mod, so whats legal and what isn't well is not in my domain (thank god).  But I still think it is over armoured.

[Logi]

You could theoretically remove the twin 10" and replace with a 12" single... but why would you?

It would be expensive and you would now have an over-sized barbette that takes up more deck length (barrel is longer) as well as having 56kg less broadside weight (and less accuracy because of singles).

It wouldn't be cheap and it certainly wouldn't be fast. (Unless you consider 19kn to be fast...) Due to it's tonnage, replacing the machinery with steam turbines will actually decrease it's speed due to the 20,000 shp limit.

The thick armor is to protect against expected 14" guns which Japan will have by the time this ship is in the waters. Also, thicker armor increases the longevity of ship's life - it can serve longer before it is out-classed.


Admittedly the AQY + MMB is a gray area - it was intended to be a MMB only. However I could only get the ship down to 16,000t which is not enough for a 2 year build time. So I maxed out to 2.5 year build time and needed some way to fill the tonnage.

That's why the ship is 1kn faster than standard (19 vs 18) and has AQY.

[Tanthalas]

oh I was referring to fast in comparative build time vs a purpose built ship, and in a strictly hypothetical situation.  I don't honestly expect you to do that, just that it was something someone "Could" do.  On mine I specifically went out of my way to make sure I couldn't refit it to be a Dreadnought type.  Personally I am all for weird, the more paths we go down that no one explored OTL the happier I am.  That's why I am building predread battle cruisers, Totally not my thing but it is adding a bit of spice to our lineups, and it is definitely something no one did (instead of endless copies of the Nelsons). 

I can see your logic on the armour but realistically 12" of KC would be resistant to 14" shell fire at any "Reasonable" range (lets face it at point blank we cant put enough armour on to resist even existing guns).  Personally I don't think armour in the range you are using is worth the cost until we start seeing like 14/45s on ships, and by that point the decks are going to be rather uhm insufficient, with plunging fire being a vary serious issue at average engagement ranges... Personally if I was building a ship like that (trying to future proof it) I would proly go with an extensive 12" belt and put the savings in Deck armour, I might even stretch it out a bit (even at 505' that girl is gona be a bit crowded)

[Logi]

It's actually not crowded at all, take the Lord Nelson class (1905) which is 135.18m long.

If you add an entire turret (0.305*40*1.5) to the length, you would still have 1.5m of length to spare. If you then also remember to remove the single 9.2" turret amidships you would have even more space.


Presuming 14"/45 though, that doesn't necessarily mean that engagement range will extend further. In fact, the move to 45 caliber vs 40 is an even greater argument for thinner deck and thicker belt because muzzle velocity will push the range at which plunging fire is a concern even further. Rather it is the extensive use of FCS that will cause plunging fire because it will allow longer engagement ranges.

The move of calibers and barrel diameter can be predicted by I'm not convinced that a naval designer could predict the developments of the FCS in 1903.

[Logi]

Here is a 15,000 ton AQY version

Back to 18 kn (fleet speed) with 16mm (0.6") shaved off the 356mm (14") plates everywhere.
In exchange deck armor goes to 76mm (3") from 63mm (2.5")

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   15,000 t light; 15,728 t standard; 16,571 t normal; 17,245 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (459.32 ft / 459.32 ft) x 64.63 ft x (28.54 / 29.55 ft)
   (140.00 m / 140.00 m) x 19.70 m  x (8.70 / 9.01 m)

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      14 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.75kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 6,634 lbs / 3,009 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   3rd:   13.4" / 340 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.99" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.99" / 76 mm  Quarter deck: 2.99" / 76 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.39" / 340 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 14,552 ihp / 10,856 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,517 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   729 - 949

Cost:
   £1.326 million / $5.302 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,048 tons, 6.3 %
      - Guns: 1,048 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 7,467 tons, 45.1 %
      - Belts: 4,592 tons, 27.7 %
      - Armament: 1,378 tons, 8.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,309 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 187 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 2,251 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,911 tons, 23.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,571 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 323 tons, 1.9 %
      - Hull below water: 8 tons
      - Hull above water: 15 tons
      - Above deck: 300 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,816 lbs / 8,988 Kg = 22.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.684 / 0.688
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,465 Square feet or 2,180 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 593 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.91
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather