IJN, Post-1900

[snip]

Regarding Mahan, I've been struggling to stay alert all day, let alone handle smaller non-work details. My mistake.

I think the 4 gun version is much better, while still being a solid contender the best Destroyer in the world when its laid down.

[Logi]

I'm a little concerned about 4 shafts being crammed in a space 10.4m wide. [...]

I've finally got around to fixing the ship:

2,700t -> 2,200t
7x140mm/50 -> 5x140mm/50
3x457mm Torpedo -> 4x457mm Torpedo
25.77 kn -> 25 kn
4,500nm@10kn -> 3,000nm@10kn
0 mines -> 24 mines

KJ2200, Japanese Destroyer Leader laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   2,200 t light; 2,266 t standard; 2,475 t normal; 2,642 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.70 ft / 393.70 ft) x 39.37 ft x (13.52 / 14.12 ft)
   (120.00 m / 120.00 m) x 12.00 m  x (4.12 / 4.31 m)

Armament:
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 351 lbs / 159 kg

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 15,000 shp / 11,190 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 376 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   175 - 228

Cost:
   £0.262 million / $1.047 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 71 tons, 2.9 %
      - Guns: 71 tons, 2.9 %
   Machinery: 1,180 tons, 47.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 892 tons, 36.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 275 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 57 tons, 2.3 %
      - On freeboard deck: 57 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,408 lbs / 639 Kg = 16.8 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.46
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.413 / 0.422
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  14.11 ft / 4.30 m,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  13.45 ft / 4.10 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.27 ft / 4.04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 161.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,620 Square feet or 894 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 59 lbs/sq ft or 288 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight: 55t
   25t - Long-Range Wireless
     8t - 4 x 1 45m TT rotating centerline with one reload each
   24t - Fantail as minedeck with 25 mines

[Logi]

Japan will build 1 class (pair) of semi-dreadnoughts before the induction of superfiring and/or steam turbines, so I'm trying to float what a good design would be. The troubling thing is that Japan will not be able to research a 14" gun before the induction of those two technologies, so I'm stuck on the 12" node.

They float between very well armored (and huge) like this:

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   20,000 t light; 20,974 t standard; 21,988 t normal; 22,799 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (492.13 ft / 492.13 ft) x 85.30 ft x (28.54 / 29.43 ft)
   (150.00 m / 150.00 m) x 26.00 m  x (8.70 / 8.97 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.74kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 10,023 lbs / 4,546 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   10.0" / 255 mm   459.32 ft / 140.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 144 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   3rd:   12.0" / 305 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.30" / 8 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.39" / 340 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 17,220 ihp / 12,846 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,825 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   902 - 1,173

Cost:
   £1.951 million / $7.803 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,034 tons, 9.2 %
      - Guns: 2,034 tons, 9.2 %
   Armour: 9,274 tons, 42.2 %
      - Belts: 4,811 tons, 21.9 %
      - Armament: 2,480 tons, 11.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,758 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 226 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,664 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,703 tons, 25.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,988 tons, 9.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 1.5 %
      - Hull above water: 25 tons
      - Above deck: 300 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,610 lbs / 12,070 Kg = 30.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.56

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.642 / 0.646
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.77 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,931 Square feet or 2,966 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 742 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.77
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

It will be impenetrable by period 12" guns and the very thick upper belt will keep out older 12" guns as well as newer guns of a caliber smaller than 12". But it is 20,000 tons (which is Satsuma size).


The other is much less well-armored and well-armed, but it is quite a bit smaller.

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   14,250 t light; 14,987 t standard; 15,800 t normal; 16,451 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (452.76 ft / 452.76 ft) x 75.46 ft x (28.87 / 29.82 ft)
   (138.00 m / 138.00 m) x 23.00 m  x (8.80 / 9.09 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.85lbs / 1.74kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8,259 lbs / 3,746 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   452.76 ft / 138.00 m   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   3rd:   12.0" / 305 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.04" / 255 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 13,942 ihp / 10,401 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,464 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   704 - 916

Cost:
   £1.499 million / $5.995 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,607 tons, 10.2 %
      - Guns: 1,607 tons, 10.2 %
   Armour: 6,149 tons, 38.9 %
      - Belts: 3,035 tons, 19.2 %
      - Armament: 1,653 tons, 10.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,326 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 136 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,157 tons, 13.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,036 tons, 25.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,550 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 302 tons, 1.9 %
      - On freeboard deck: 52 tons
      - Above deck: 250 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,949 lbs / 6,781 Kg = 17.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.561 / 0.565
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.14 ft / 3.70 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.54 ft / 3.52 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,082 Square feet or 2,237 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 693 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Kaiser Kirk]

On the first one - if freeboard is 4.9, and upper belt is 2.5, top of main belt is 2.4 ? Which puts bottom at -1.6?  Not bad for the period.  Pretty much a wall of armor steel.
The only "flaw" I see with it is a pair of the amidships 9.84" should probably be superimposed, like Regina Elena

I like the departure from norm in the concept. Right now, my ships would need to be in <2000yards to get through that armor, which is torpedo range and so folks normally stay out. Of course you don't have torpedoes like most capital ships of the era,  that's an option- just a painful one due to the havok you'd wreck. It would be very interesting to see what, if any, response this ship got from the neighboring powers.

The second, it's more practical in someways - still good armor and weapon mix, and 2/3rds the cost of the first. 10" belt is relatively hard for guns to get through at all "these days" and even with AP rounds, they didn't tend to get through in functional mode. I am a little curious on both why 75mm of deck armor, seems far more than needed for plunging fire at current battle ranges, and you've got it keyed as a single deck, which means plunging can come into the upper works "over" the upper belt. Which diminishes the value of that heavy upper belt.

[Logi]

The only "flaw" I see with it is a pair of the amidships 9.84" should probably be superimposed, like Regina Elena

It has the same layout as the OTL Satsuma-class, not the Regina Elena.

Unless you were trying to say I should make it like the Regina Elena instead of the Satsuma.

Edit: I just noticed the belts on the 20,000t design is only 140m long and not 150m long...

[Logi]

I tried to make the 20,000t version a bit smaller. I removed one pair of 250mm guns and shortened the hull. Dropped 2,700t tons and got thicker main and upper belt armor.

Like you've noted, the ship didn't have torpedoes so I've elected to add 2 submerged torpedo tubes on each side - solely to ward off attempts to close to the ship.

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   17,300 t light; 18,137 t standard; 19,056 t normal; 19,791 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (452.76 ft / 452.76 ft) x 73.16 ft x (28.87 / 29.84 ft)
   (138.00 m / 138.00 m) x 22.30 m  x (8.80 / 9.10 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm 45.0 cal guns - 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8,259 lbs / 3,746 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   452.76 ft / 138.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   11.0" / 280 mm   452.76 ft / 138.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   2nd:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      10.0" / 255 mm
   3rd:   14.0" / 356 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.30" / 8 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.02" / 356 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 16,193 ihp / 12,080 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,654 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   810 - 1,054

Cost:
   £1.654 million / $6.617 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,607 tons, 8.4 %
      - Guns: 1,607 tons, 8.4 %
   Armour: 8,290 tons, 43.5 %
      - Belts: 4,596 tons, 24.1 %
      - Armament: 2,021 tons, 10.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,458 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 215 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 2,505 tons, 13.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,558 tons, 23.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,756 tons, 9.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 1.8 %
      - Hull below water: 8 tons
      - Hull above water: 32 tons
      - Above deck: 300 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,670 lbs / 9,829 Kg = 25.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.58

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.697 / 0.701
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m,  16.08 ft / 4.90 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,488 Square feet or 2,461 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 675 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.99
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Logi]

The end point of the minimalism is this 8,700t classic AY ship.

Upper belt resists 7" fire from at least 5,500 yds out. Main belt resists 10" and 12" fire at similar ranges. The danger is, ofc, the introduction of 14" guns, etc. Since, the main belt will prevent waterline hole and the submerged torpedo tubes will ward off most ships attempting a torpedo run.

The large number of secondaries is not for dealing with smaller ships (152mm is too large for that anyways) - but for holing enemy combatant's upperworks and superstructure. Large misc weight will also the ship to be refitted in the years to come.

Whether the ships retain enough value to be refitted in the coming turbine age is another question entirely.

Katori, Japan Battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   8,700 t light; 9,294 t standard; 9,899 t normal; 10,383 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.70 ft / 393.70 ft) x 60.37 ft x (26.57 / 27.60 ft)
   (120.00 m / 120.00 m) x 18.40 m  x (8.10 / 8.41 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.98lbs / 386.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      20 - 5.98" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.07lbs / 49.02kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1903 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 5,596 lbs / 2,538 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   5.12" / 130 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   4.92 ft / 1.50 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 255 mm   5.12" / 130 mm      6.10" / 155 mm
   3rd:   10.0" / 255 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 10,772 ihp / 8,036 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,088 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   496 - 645

Cost:
   £0.917 million / $3.668 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 899 tons, 9.1 %
      - Guns: 899 tons, 9.1 %
   Armour: 3,287 tons, 33.2 %
      - Belts: 1,872 tons, 18.9 %
      - Armament: 729 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 608 tons, 6.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 78 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,667 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,435 tons, 24.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,199 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 412 tons, 4.2 %
      - Hull below water: 12 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 75 tons
      - Above deck: 325 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,519 lbs / 4,318 Kg = 11.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.549 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m,  12.47 ft / 3.80 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.47 ft / 3.80 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,564 Square feet or 1,539 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 113 lbs/sq ft or 551 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight
Hull below water
12t - Submerged 457mm TTs on each side with 2 reload each

On freeboard deck
15t - CnC Facilities
10t - Short-Range Wireless
50t - Reserve Weight

Above deck
25t - Long-Range Wireless
300t - Reserve Weight

[Jefgte]

Commissioned in 1905-1906,
The last 8700t is obsolete.
The other 17300t is better.

Jef

[Logi]

KJ2200 alternative which is focused less on being a destroyer leader and more on being a cruiser.

1.51 seakeeping -> 1.01 seakeeping
4x140mm -> 9x140mm (eff. 7 broadside)
25 kn -> 26 kn
4x457mm Torp -> 2x457mm Torp (eff. 1 broadside)

0.413 cB -> 0.432 cB
Long-Range Wireless + Mines -> Nothing

Omono, IJN Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   2,550 t light; 2,641 t standard; 2,865 t normal; 3,044 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.91 ft / 380.91 ft) x 45.28 ft x (13.45 / 14.03 ft)
   (116.10 m / 116.10 m) x 13.80 m  x (4.10 / 4.28 m)

Armament:
      9 - 5.51" / 140 mm 50.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
     5 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 754 lbs / 342 kg

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 403 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   195 - 254

Cost:
   £0.338 million / $1.353 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 152 tons, 5.3 %
      - Guns: 152 tons, 5.3 %
   Machinery: 1,479 tons, 51.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 917 tons, 32.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 315 tons, 11.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - On freeboard deck: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,207 lbs / 548 Kg = 14.4 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.65
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.432 / 0.440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.41 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.52 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.15 ft / 3.40 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m,  10.50 ft / 3.20 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.55 ft / 3.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,848 Square feet or 1,008 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 318 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.19
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight - 2t:
2t - 2 x 45cm side rotating TTs lowered

[eltf177]

Nice and powerful, but absolutely _no_ armor at all? ???

[Logi]

The base design for the current KJ series (and the one I labeled Omono) is the same - an enlarged destroyer. As such it has no armor.

That said, at 2,550t it's currently pretty much impossible to have decent armor whilst having a top speed of 26 kn.

For example, a quick modification:
2,550t -> 4,150t
0mm Deck -> 23mm Deck
20k hp Steam -> 26k hp Steam&VTE

That's a 63% increase in size for armor less than 1" thick. Not worth it IMO.

[Walter]

Just out of curiosity, considering the expensiveness of high speeds, how much speed would you have to drop if you were to stick to the same tonnage?

[Logi]

For 23mm deck armor, speed drops to 24.96kn, a lost of 1.04kn.

For 38mm deck armor (about when it starts to becomes useful IMO), speed drops to 24.24kn, a total lost of 1.76kn.
Of course, as you get close to 24kn, you're starting to get into territory where much larger armored cruisers, etc. can possibly catch this ship - in which case 38mm isn't enough.

For 50mm deck armor, speed drops to 23.63kn - total lost of 2.37kn.

[eltf177]

Sounds like adding armor will cause problems. Still, I would at least armor the Main Battery and maybe the CT...

[Walter]

For 23mm deck armor, speed drops to 24.96kn, a lost of 1.04kn.

I guess it depends on what you exactly do to get it. Throwing your numbers into SS, I could squeeze 22mm/28mm/22mm out of it for the price of 1 knot. For probably 200 tons or so more, you could add a bit more as well as 30mm shields to the guns and a 30mm CT. It ain't much but it is something. You could also save some weight by dropping a pair of guns. To me you are focusing too much at getting as much guns on a design that you can. I messed with it to get 7x140mm (dropped the two superfiring guns), 25 knots, 35mm/35mm/35mm deck, 35mm shields, 35mm CT on 2750 tons light.